To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

I have success with cutting down on sugars / starchy carbs but not altogether cutting them out, a calorie deficit and exercise (cardio and resistance exercises with some weights) and systematic weighing and logging. As much effort to maintain as lose, really. If I have an evening off I'm right back at it the next day. I just learnt to enjoy the process.

@scoopydoopy, do you track your daily calorie burn through a fitness tracker?

It's like my body just got stuck. I am way more healthy than I ever was. I can lift weights and run quite a while before I get tired. But I am nowhere near a healthy bmi. And I am certainly never going to be skinny !

@grasstreeleaf yeah I have an Apple Watch. I don't take too much notice of it though as I know that they overestimate. I never 'eat back' calories. And I do at least 20-30 mins of weights/walking/running/yoga a day. Every day.

Not really. The problem is post weight loss people think that they can go back to old habits when in reality maintenance is 200-300 cals more. We live in an environment that encourages obesity and to avoid it need to be mindful re what we eat.

@scoopydoopy

What deficit to you work to? I can't compare you exactly with me. I have lost 4 stone over the last 3 years but have built up to running 10k a day, walking 5k plus resistance exercises. I have a deficit of about 700 calories but the calories burnt through exercise might be overestimated by the tracker (burn just over 1000).

@Honestopinion23

I wish that the people pouring scorn on this thread would at least just watch that Zoe Harcombe video linked above. It's all a con and those who are lucky enough not to be too adversely affected by the obesogenic environment we live in tell themselves that this is due to their hard work and discipline...

Pouring scorn?!

You've posted in this thread about people's bodies 'adapting themselves' to not lose weight on 700 calories per day!

It's utter nonsense. You are effectivity challenging mathematics itself.

Even a completely sedentary 5'0" 7st 70yo woman needs over 1,000 calories per day just to stay alive.

I'm amazed MN allow harmful nonsense like this to be posted.

Covid conspiracy theories are barely any more ridiculous.

I also think people have unrealistic goal weights. And actually how long it's going to take to get there

This is definitely true for lots ime.

I'm currently losing weight on Exante (Vlcd, shakes diet...please no lecturing, its working very well for me).

I'm on the Facebook support group and every day there are multiple posts along the lines of 'I'm so fed up, I've only lost 10 lbs, don't think this is for me, calling it quits now' - from women who've been doing it for three weeks and have 6 stone to lose. Then they're onto something else they try for a month that 'doesn't work' before they quit and move to another one.

I honestly think for most people ANY diet plan 'will' work. Good old fashioned clean eating, Shakes, VLCD, Slimming world, WW, keto, low Carb, whatever. They're all built to restrict calories and it doesn't much matter which you follow, it's just finding one you like.

But you need to stick at it, you need to be prepared to commit to it long term and realise that these diets aren't magic bullets you can follow for a few weeks and drop all the excess weight in weeks.

@grasstreeleaf

@scoopydoopy

What deficit to you work to? I can't compare you exactly with me. I have lost 4 stone over the last 3 years but have built up to running 10k a day, walking 5k plus resistance exercises. I have a deficit of about 700 calories but the calories burnt through exercise might be overestimated by the tracker (burn just over 1000).

I'm trying to cut down again at the moment so I'm aiming for 12-1500. My TDEE is supposed to be about 2400 for maintenance but eating at a 500 cal deficit from that did absolutely nothing, I just stayed at what I was for months. I struggle with time to exercise etc as I have a small child so I have to fit in where I can.

For me to get anywhere near a 'healthy' weight I'd need to lose 2 stone and eat hardly anything I think!

@Joystir59

I think the mindset has to be a change of life rather than a diet. Slim people mostly eat low carb no processed in my experience. Small portions. Big spaces between meals.

In my experience slim people eat fuck all and their disordered eating is normalised. I've not known anyone below "overweight" on the BMI chart who doesn't fast, massively undereat or yo-yo diet. Which is fine but don't pretend to obese people that your figure is attainable through normal levels of discipline.

@SofiaMichelle seriously educate yourself before likening me to a Covid conspiracy theorist. It’s not like I’m making this up. There are numerous scientific studies that prove that the body can adapt to very small amounts of food and that the 3500 calories equals a pound of fat is totally flawed, which is why I encouraged people to at least watch the video posted before just spouting the mainstream view that has seen obesity and linked conditions increase year upon year since it was invented.

Oh and you might want to listen to the many people who have experienced their body adapting to very low calorie diets and not just assume they are deluded or lying.

Not holding my breath.

@herculesoffline how can they be under eating if they're a healthy bmi?

Or do you mean 'normal' eating habits as in common habits of 2/3 of the adult population (who are overweight or obese)?

In my experience slim people eat fuck all and their disordered eating is normalised. I've not known anyone below "overweight" on the BMI chart who doesn't fast, massively undereat or yo-yo diet. Which is fine but don't pretend to obese people that your figure is attainable through normal levels of discipline

Don't be so ridiculous.

Someone with a normal, healthy weight is taking in the appropriate amount of calories for their body.

If you're overweight or obese, you're taking in too many calories. And it's likely that your perception of what is a normal amount of food is massively skewed.

If you can't recognise that basic fact, you've got zero chance of losing weight tbh.

@Honestopinion23

Can you post links to any of the studies?

Not being goady or trying to get you to prove your point; I think we are of a similar mind about this topic. Just curious to read further. Thank you.

I've not known anyone below "overweight" on the BMI chart who doesn't fast, massively undereat or yo-yo diet.

Your circle is small in at least one sense...

Oh and you might want to listen to the many people who have experienced their body adapting to very low calorie diets...

Yeah, and I might not.

YANBU for thinking this is much more complicated than people think.

People are not BU for thinking it's simple in the first place - it generally is.

The complications arise from having ever been obese/overweight.

It's a tough one, OP. The cynic in me cannot help but note that weight loss, diet and exercise products have a vested interest in failure or limited success.

[quote TheFoundations]@Honestopinion23

Can you post links to any of the studies?

Not being goady or trying to get you to prove your point; I think we are of a similar mind about this topic. Just curious to read further. Thank you.[/quote]
This! Though I think that moderation is a rare skill because human appetites are geared to consumption. We naturally - pre 20th century - had to expend much more energy in just living and had to experience lean seasons. Fattening up was never a dangerous or permanent thing under those circumstances.

I think most slim people have the ability to self-regulate so that their bodies naturally want less food if they’ve had a big meal the day before. For many of us who have struggled with weight, that self-regulation doesn’t happen naturally and eating carbs will usually trigger us to eat more and more. If I had a big takeaway for dinner, I’d wake up ravenous and crave toast or croissants. I still doubt that slim people who claim that it’s all down to willpower experience the same intensity of cravings that many obese people do because those cravings can become all-consuming and are almost impossible to resist and are made much worse by low fat diets.

That’s not to say that there aren’t many people who have messed up relationships with food and chronically undereat. There are countless threads on here where someone claims that having three ryvitas and hummus is a heavy lunch.

For me, when I reduced processed food and carbs and stopped listening to dietary guidance on fat, I stopped being hungry and stopped counting calories. I love the food I eat and feel really good. Today I’ve had salad with a creamy avocado dressing, eggs fried in butter with some Parmesan cheese and some Brazil nuts. I’m having baked salmon for dinner with courgette and broccoli with butter and some cheese. Then some strawberries. If someone put a pizza in front of me, I wouldn’t be fussed. I used to be addicted to carbs and could eat a whole loaf of bread in one day. I had terrible PMT, migraines, was 3 stone overweight, felt tired, depressed and sluggish all the time and was always hungry no matter how much I ate. Now that has gone away.

@Honestopinion23

I think most slim people have the ability to self-regulate so that their bodies naturally want less food if they’ve had a big meal the day before. For many of us who have struggled with weight, that self-regulation doesn’t happen naturally and eating carbs will usually trigger us to eat more and more. If I had a big takeaway for dinner, I’d wake up ravenous and crave toast or croissants. I still doubt that slim people who claim that it’s all down to willpower experience the same intensity of cravings that many obese people do because those cravings can become all-consuming and are almost impossible to resist and are made much worse by low fat diets.

That’s not to say that there aren’t many people who have messed up relationships with food and chronically undereat. There are countless threads on here where someone claims that having three ryvitas and hummus is a heavy lunch.

For me, when I reduced processed food and carbs and stopped listening to dietary guidance on fat, I stopped being hungry and stopped counting calories. I love the food I eat and feel really good. Today I’ve had salad with a creamy avocado dressing, eggs fried in butter with some Parmesan cheese and some Brazil nuts. I’m having baked salmon for dinner with courgette and broccoli with butter and some cheese. Then some strawberries. If someone put a pizza in front of me, I wouldn’t be fussed. I used to be addicted to carbs and could eat a whole loaf of bread in one day. I had terrible PMT, migraines, was 3 stone overweight, felt tired, depressed and sluggish all the time and was always hungry no matter how much I ate. Now that has gone away.

So you changed the way you eat, lost weight and got healthier?

[quote TheFoundations]@Honestopinion23

Can you post links to any of the studies?

Not being goady or trying to get you to prove your point; I think we are of a similar mind about this topic. Just curious to read further. Thank you.[/quote]
For a summary of the numerous scientific studies, I recommend the Obesity Code by Jason Fung, Why We Eat Too Much by Andrew Jenkinson and the linked video to Zoe Harcombe’s talk at the PHC conference. I don’t have the time or energy to go and pick out the individual authors and summarise the studies when that has already been done much more effectively in the sources I mentioned. Michael Mosley also summarises some of the studies in his Fast800 book.

I still doubt that slim people who claim that it’s all down to willpower experience the same intensity of cravings that many obese people do because those cravings can become all-consuming and are almost impossible to resist and are made much worse by low fat diets.

I think this is probably the case too, because I've always been naturally slimmish - I naturally settle at a BMI of about 23, I'm a bit above that at the moment but that's because I'm losing pregnancy weight, and it's coming off steadily just as it did for my first - but I put on about a stone on antidepressants, which I only lost after I stopped taking them. I told my doctor and he airily said 'oh, they don't make you gain weight, they just increase your appetite. Just only eat what you did before and you won't gain weight'. That was true, but a massive underestimate of what that felt like and how easily I could not eat more - I was constantly ravenous, to the point that if I didn't eat more I couldn't function at work because my concentration was so ruined by my obsession with food. I don't feel like that when I'm not on antidepressants - I get hungry, of course, and I have cravings, of course, but nothing like that. But I suspect that it may be how some people feel all the time, and it really isn't as easy to ignore as someone who's never felt it would assume.

The levels of delusion, misinformation, projection and just bonkers opinions are astonishing on this thread.

Of course CICO works. No it’s not easy sticking to it but it does work. The Twinkie Diet experiment - a US professor lost weight eating Twinkies and Doritos but sticking to calorie limits - is a fun example.

I lost 3 stone doing CICO many years ago and have kept it off. No I’m not lucky or naturally slim or whatever. Believe me or don’t, I don’t care, but excuses and misinformation aren’t helping anyone.

I really don’t understand the benefit of constant negativity and saying there’s only 5% success rate or whatever.

‘Starvation mode’ is not a thing either.

I’d recommend r/fatlogic on Reddit to anyone with common sense.

So you changed the way you eat, lost weight and got healthier?

Yes….? The key being i changed the way I ate. Everything in moderation was terrible advice for me. So was the ‘a calorie is a calorie’ advice. The only thing that worked was drastically changing how I ate, going against mainstream advice and directly targeting my hunger. I’ve not really said anything different on this thread other than that for those who get up to a very high BMI (my highest was 32 which is only mild obesity), they may not be able to do it naturally.

I’d recommend r/fatlogic on Reddit to anyone with common sense.

I wouldn't. It's not that it's wrong, but it's egregiously unkind and spiteful.