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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

693 replies

Shirazboobaloo · 23/09/2021 21:09

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

OP posts:
purpleneon · 24/09/2021 12:28

@BoredZelda

Lots and lots of babies have cleft palate without any other conditions - I know this as it is far more common outside the U.K. & yes I'm the U.K. many do abort cleft palate babies.

Again with the “lots” and “many” If you want to assert women are choosing to abort their babies because they won’t have a smiley baby, you need to back that up with actual facts and figures.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/aleteia.org/2021/06/16/abortion-rates-jump-significantly-in-england-wales/amp

It's a commonly known fact - if you Google so many stats and papers discussing it...

Cbtb · 24/09/2021 12:29

And on TFMR till term if you ban this then you get all sorts of awful side effects like that poor lady in Ireland who died before the law change there because they couldn’t/wouldn’t terminate the pregnancy. Or making women continue with pregnancies in situations like anencephaly. What about twin pregnancies when there is twin to twin transfusion or they are conjoined and one won’t survive outside the womb but the other that could maybe survive needs delivery now to save them but you can’t as that would be a tfmr of the other twin

Brefugee · 24/09/2021 12:35

My beautiful granddaughter has congenital, bilateral talipes and the thought that she could have been killed until birth makes me sick and very fearful.

fearful of what? that someone will come and take her away and kill her? Fearful that other mothers may abort a pregnancy with the same condition and ... how will that affect you?

How is your granddaughter looked after? do her parents have enough money? resources? what about when they die? will a sibling take over? willingly? What is the actual plan for her life?

When we talk about abortion, for whatever reason but especially TFMR, we have to separate the personal from the poplulation. Sure we have all seen happy smiling DS people, and it is absolutely bloody fantastic to see them with more profile on CBBC and acting. I am absolutely for that. But as pp said: they are the "acceptable" ones. For the hard of thinking: they are "acceptable" to the general public as cute, manageable, lovely, not having a tantrum aged 24 and nobody can help.

The fact is we need more visibility of disabilities - not just so that people with disabilities can enjoy life with the rest of us, and so the rest of us learn to accept that everyone is not like us. But so that we can see the struggles they and their carers have. And we need to put way way more resources into helping carers.

The Instamoms may have cute photogenic babies now. But will they be posting later. As PP said about her mother When all her friends were dealing with children becoming independent adults, she was essentially still parenting a toddler, well into her 80s. She died terrified for his future care, which I have taken over.

That is many people's reality: dying old, worn out and petrified for your child's future. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Lockdownbear · 24/09/2021 12:39

I've google cleft palate in the 36 deaths per 1000. Fairly low but still. It's a risk and probably at the more severe end of the scale.

SpeedRunParent · 24/09/2021 12:40

@Covidworries

Im pro choice too BUT a pregnancy can not be terminated after 24 weeks in most cases. After 24 weeks if the fetus isnt viable is different BUT DS shouldnt be a reason to terminate. Currently a DS baby can be terminated up to term and that isnt right as DS doesnt mean the child isnt viable or would be unable to servive outside of the womb. Plus DS isnt the only thing a child can be born with that causes learning difficulties but most learning disabilities cant be checked in the womb so the ruling has been a kick in the face for the DS community by stating their life isnt as important as a non DS life regardless of any oyher disabilities or not.
I agree, Covidworries. It's perverse that a baby with learning difficulties can be terminated at such a late stage. I too am pro-choice, I completely agree that there should be some extension to the 24 week limit for certain catastrophic conditions. DS should not be included in these exemptions from the 24 week rule.
Lockdownbear · 24/09/2021 12:44

That is many people's reality: dying old, worn out and petrified for your child's future. I wouldn't wish that on anyone

The other reality is dying young because of the strain on the parents. Leaving the child in care.
We don't see the people hidden away in homes. Big fight for properly equipped "changing places" so carers can get out with children / adults in nappies. But reality is many are hidden away out of sight, out of mind.

ISpyCobraKai · 24/09/2021 12:47

Pro choice BUT isn't pro choice.

ShushShushShush · 24/09/2021 12:47

I agree, Covidworries. It's perverse that a baby with learning difficulties can be terminated at such a late stage. I too am pro-choice, I completely agree that there should be some extension to the 24 week limit for certain catastrophic conditions. DS should not be included in these exemptions from the 24 week rule.

You realise that it's not "learning difficulties". Babies born to TFMR after 22 weeks, especially the late stage, second and third trimester, often have no brain function at all. That their brain has deteriorated or disintegrated to the point where there is no activity. That's why they have got to 24+ weeks, because their parents were desperately hoping that it would be as simple as having "learning difficulties."

Its not because they might not be able to add up as quickly as others, or have trouble walking. It's complete loss of function where they will never breathe, see, swallow, hear, move, or be without pain.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/09/2021 12:51

It's hard to see through the emotional res[ponse to this but again this is an issue here 2 sets of protected characteristics, 2 cohorts of people, have equal rights and absolutely opposite ideas on a single subject.

Tighten up the issues around late term abortion by all means but do nto step up and stand alongside a group of people who wish to remove the rights of women to control their own bodies, to make decisions for themselves.

I too think this young woman has been taken up by people whose priorities are NOT disabled people.

It isn't suggesting that she isn't articulate and capable of careful thought and self expression but it is pointing out that, like any other young person, vulnerable or not, finding people who will support your cause can be easily confused by those who see your cause as a good bandwagon, who have other motives, who will use you to their own ends.

Like many posters I empathise with Heidi but her request wouldn't make a good law!

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 24/09/2021 13:01

It's incredibly common in the UK. We have really good cleft services and repairs are done really quite early so you probably see quite a few children who had clefts - you just won't immediately notice

The poster wants facts and evidence that women are aborting babies just because they have a cleft lip and no other issues

No one is arguing that there are children with cleft lips they are arguing that women aren’t aborting purely for that reason

purpleneon · 24/09/2021 13:01

@ISpyCobraKai

Pro choice BUT isn't pro choice.

You can be pro choice but not agree with abortion after 24 weeks (I.e. the point that a foetus can survive on its own due to modern medicine).

Same way I'm pro choice but would agree that a mother that leaves her 1 day old baby outside in the cold resulting in death should be charged.

Pro-choice doesn't mean that you are fine with abortion up until the hour before a baby is born.

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

Anyway I don't mind what others choose to do to be honest, but do feel very sad for the downs girl (and others like her).

lockdownmadnessdotcom · 24/09/2021 13:04

It makes me a bit queasy that abortion is allowed up until 40 weeks in some cases, but I also don't think it ever happens in the UK, or if it does, it's not really abortion but a very disabled child will be born and allowed to die.

I don't think anyone has a right to force a woman to carry a baby to term that she does not want, and does not feel equipped to look after.

lockdownmadnessdotcom · 24/09/2021 13:06

My cousin had a baby who was very disabled - she was born close to term and died/allowed to die within hours. That is not abortion.

Carboncheque · 24/09/2021 13:07

Those who are having abortions solely because the foetus has Down syndrome will most probably have done so well before 24 weeks.

lockdownmadnessdotcom · 24/09/2021 13:07

People who happen to have Down’s syndrome are usually capable of living full and happy lives

They really aren't. They *sometimes" are. Most have significant problems.

Shmithecat2 · 24/09/2021 13:07

@purpleneon

You can be pro choice but not agree with abortion after 24 weeks (I.e. the point that a foetus can survive on its own due to modern medicine).

No, you can't. You are not pro choice. Because you think at some point, the choice should be taken away. That is not pro choice.

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

Well, there's not such thing as 37mo foetus, so probably not.Confused

lockdownmadnessdotcom · 24/09/2021 13:07

@Carboncheque

Those who are having abortions solely because the foetus has Down syndrome will most probably have done so well before 24 weeks.
I agree. You find out early on, you don't find out at 35 weeks or whatever.
purpleneon · 24/09/2021 13:09

[quote Shmithecat2]@purpleneon

You can be pro choice but not agree with abortion after 24 weeks (I.e. the point that a foetus can survive on its own due to modern medicine).

No, you can't. You are not pro choice. Because you think at some point, the choice should be taken away. That is not pro choice.

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

Well, there's not such thing as 37mo foetus, so probably not.Confused[/quote]

*37 weeks

Obviously a typo rolls eyes

ISpyCobraKai · 24/09/2021 13:10

It doesn't matter what I would or wouldn't do, it's not up to me to decide another woman's choice, it's hers.

purpleneon · 24/09/2021 13:11

[quote Shmithecat2]@purpleneon

You can be pro choice but not agree with abortion after 24 weeks (I.e. the point that a foetus can survive on its own due to modern medicine).

No, you can't. You are not pro choice. Because you think at some point, the choice should be taken away. That is not pro choice.

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

Well, there's not such thing as 37mo foetus, so probably not.Confused[/quote]
Genuine question so that I understand the parameters of what it means to be pro choice apparently LOL

Do pro choice people have to be fine with a requested abortion at 38 weeks then??

You have to think it's fine anytime before the baby gets pulled out or given birth to??

Lockdownbear · 24/09/2021 13:11

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

I assume you mean weeks.
Nobody would leave it that late through choice. However if the baby has had multiple strokes or something in the womb then yes I think she should be supported to make the right choice for her baby.
God love any mum given that knowledge so late that her baby is so badly damaged 💔

CatJumperTwat · 24/09/2021 13:13

Those who think women should be forced to give birth to babies they don't want - who do you propose looks after these children? Should the woman have to look after the child she doesn't want? Should they go into care, with its associated (terrible) outcomes? Are you under the illusion there are thousands of couples lined up to adopt disabled children?

londonrach · 24/09/2021 13:14

The ruling was correct...the lady has the choice re the pregnancy...no one else. I do see alot of patients with Ds and know I never could have a baby with Ds...not due to the LD but the horrible early demantia that often comes with Ds. My choice due to what I see at work. But everyone is different so I'm very pro choice

ManifestDestinee · 24/09/2021 13:15

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

Are we "fine" with it? No. Do we like the idea? No. Do we think it actually happens or would happen in practice...also no.
But do we know that it is not our decision to make for others? YES.

Shmithecat2 · 24/09/2021 13:15

@purpleneon

Are pro-choice people fine with aborting a 37 month old foetus??

Fine isn't the right word. Because abortions are never 'fine'. But they are necessary and should be accessible. Because at 37w, there will be devastating issues that would lead to an abortion at such a late stage. I feel nothing but sadness for anyone who has to go through it. Do you think it's a glib choice some women make just because they can?