Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

[Shirazboobaloo]

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

It’s excellent that some people with downs go on to have happy and almost independent lives, and undoubtedly downs children being their families great joy. However, the story of boys like my next door neighbour, who is almost 20, non verbal, doubly incontinent, violent and completely unable to even have a short walk unassisted don’t get told. The times his mother had to take him to have multiple teeth extracted when he didn’t know what was happening, with all the pain and aftercare that involved don’t get told. Of course she loves him, but it’s a dangerous false narrative to present high functioning cases like Heidi as the norm.

I don’t think a 38 week abortion is “fine”. I think it a tragedy. It’s incredibly, vanishingly rare for terminations to be undertaken that late, as the statistics given earlier in this thread show.

Late terminations happen in the context of wanted pregnancies. They are both a tragedy and the least awful of all the awful outcomes on offer.

I trust women to make these incredibly difficult decisions in consort with their medical teams and any loved ones they choose to involve.

The suggestion that women willingly choose a late term abortion for cos they can’t be bothered to have a baby isn’t born out by the figures, or by the powerful accounts on this thread.

Funny how there's always money to fund chipping away at abortion rights, but the same people don't want to fund the support people need to raise children with disabilities.

No one waits to have a late abortion for the fun of it. I suspect any late abortion with DS involved would have another factor like relationship breakdown, another disability being detected etc. The law should allow maximum flexibility so people can choose based on their own specific circumstances.

If there was better information about downs syndrome and more support, I bet the abortion rate would be lower. People are wary of having a highly dependent child with no support, having caring responsibilities right into old age. I don't blame them.

'Prochoice but not prochoice' is just ridiculous. It means unless you think women should be able to get an abortion at any stage for any reason, then you are not prochoice. This is bullshit.

I think 24 weeks in a perfectly reasonably time frame and within that I am prochoice. For life limiting disabilities that only come to light after 24 weeks I am prochoice that abortion should be available. Down syndrome can be screened from 10 - 14 weeks so there is just no need for a termination at 30 or 40 weeks imo. It is also not life limiting. I would assume it's an extremely rare thing to happen anyway but I think it should not be possible to terminate for at this stage.

The suggestion that Heidi must be being manipulated by prolifers because she doesn't like the thought that she could have been terminated days before she was born is so offensive. Just because people have different views from you doesn't mean they're being manipulated - or perhaps you think it's because she has a disability so she can't think for herself? Disgusting.

I trust women to make the right decisions for themselves and their families.

I also wish that politicians would make better decisions regarding support for disabled people and their carers.

But even if all of that were ideal, I would still wish for women to have the right to terminate. The courts made the correct decision.

The suggestion that women willingly choose a late term abortion for cos they can’t be bothered to have a baby isn’t born out by the figures, or by the powerful accounts on this thread

Ok but it’s not legal to terminate a healthy fetus that far into pregnancy. You can’t do it past 24 weeks (and in practice, most places wouldn’t do it past 18-20 weeks unless something was very wrong with the baby.)

I think 24 weeks in a perfectly reasonably time frame and within that I am prochoice. For life limiting disabilities that only come to light after 24 weeks I am prochoice that abortion should be available. Down syndrome can be screened from 10 - 14 weeks so there is just no need for a termination at 30 or 40 weeks imo. It is also not life limiting. I would assume it's an extremely rare thing to happen anyway but I think it should not be possible to terminate for at this stage.

tell me you haven't read the thread without telling me you haven't read the thread...

If there was better information about downs syndrome and more support, I bet the abortion rate would be lower.

I know what you’re getting at, but it’s also important to note that it might not be and that is just as valid. There’s no ‘acceptable rate’ of termination, only what women choose.

I agree. You find out early on, you don't find out at 35 weeks or whatever.

Well, there have been no post 24 week terminations in the UK for DS for the past 10 years. So in that sense you are correct (and that clearly makes Heidi Crowter's case a proxy for eroding abortion rights).

But sometimes medical investigations for potentially very serious things do run very very late - because of delays, because of the complexity of the situation. And when in the end the woman is confronted with devastating news, in rare cases she can be very far along in her pregnancy.

Which is why the law needs to stand as it is. When it comes to abortion, I'm with Barack Obama: safe, legal and rare. I would add to that: but always an option.

The law as it stands gives doctors and women the time and space to decide how to progress when the foetus has serious medical issues.

279 abortions were carried out after 24 weeks in the U.K. in 2019. Most of them will have been due to issues picked up on the 20 week scan where, after further testing and the opinions of consultants, the women made the decision to terminate. By the time an appointment was available they were past 24 weeks. Sometimes the consultant might say that allowing more time for the foetus to grow would allow them to give a more accurate picture of how severe a defect will be and how much would impact the future health of the foetus.

The law has worked. It’s allowed the decisions to be made by medical professionals and the women concerned, not banner waving members of the public. The majority of these women are having to terminate much wanted pregnancies because of severe and complex health issues with the foetus.

I am so angry at posters who think of me and others like me who are called murderers for tfmr after 24 weeks.
You have no idea what pain we have been through we did not terminate our pregnancies for fun.
I wanted my son it wasn't a case of not wanting to raise him it was that i didn't want to see him suffer and struggle until he died from the condition he had.
Until you have walked in our shoes i actually don't give a damn on your opinion but there are families who do care and they don't need to be hurt by mindless people who actually don't give a damn who they hurt.

aberteifi

We hear you.

@pointythings

aberteifi

We hear you.

Some of us absolutely do hear you and will absolutely continue to hear you and ensure your voices are heard no matter how loudly those who think they know your situation better than you may protest and shout.

I’m so sorry for your loss

@Aberteifi

I am so angry at posters who think of me and others like me who are called murderers for tfmr after 24 weeks. You have no idea what pain we have been through we did not terminate our pregnancies for fun. I wanted my son it wasn't a case of not wanting to raise him it was that i didn't want to see him suffer and struggle until he died from the condition he had. Until you have walked in our shoes i actually don't give a damn on your opinion but there are families who do care and they don't need to be hurt by mindless people who actually don't give a damn who they hurt.

Well said. It's sick. And shows a complete lack of compassion, understanding or even just basic human kindness. They have no idea of the hell that is TFMR. They should be grateful they have no idea of the hell that is TFMR.

to you and all the other mums who have shared their experiences here.

Correct ruling. The point is that women should have choice. What is the right decision for one person may not be the right one for another, and that needs to be respected.

Do you know how many women have aborted after 24 weeks and of those how many aborted for anything other than severe disabilities incompatible with life or severe disability abortion delayed by a week or two due to circumstances beyond their control? Almost none.

Anti abortionists like to focus on abortions of viable foetuses because it suits their agenda. Women murder their babies days before they are due to be born. Evil evil women. It is intended to put a very upsetting image on people's minds which can then be used to further restrict and eventually remove the right to abortion.

It is intended to provoke strong emotions against something that actually very rarely happens.

Wanting to force women to give birth to babies they do not want and do not feel able to raise would not be the victory they think it will. It will result in an increase in babies born severely disabled being given up and growing up in an overwhelmed and barely fit for purpose care system.

So let's say they win their appeal. Do they later go to court to ban people giving up severely disabled babies on the grounds that doing so when they would not surrender a non disabled child is discriminatory?

Instead of forcing women to give birth against their will they should focus on improving resources for disabled people. You can barely get respite. You have to fight for every penny of help. Social services fob you off until you reach breaking point then act like you're a terrible person.

Sort THAT out. That will make people with disabilities feel equal and valued. Not bringing unwanted babies into the world.

don't mind what others choose to do to be honest, but do feel very sad for the downs girl (and others like her).

Please don't call Heidi the downs girl.

The disablism on this thread is a powerful demonstration of why our society gets away with removing legal protections on the basis of disability.

The disablism on this thread is a powerful demonstration of why our society gets away with removing legal protections on the basis of disability.

The law on abortion after 24 weeks for medical reasons is about the women who are pregnant, their choice, their freedom and their autonomy. The life of the woman who is already born must always come first.

This case is a sneaky way of giving the foetus personhood, supported by the powerful US anti-abortion lobby. You may be fully on board with that - that is your prerogative. Just don't pretend it's about supporting people with disabilities. If it were, Heidi and her team would be arguing for more money for people living with disabilities and their carers, more rights to flexible and part time working, more support in ageing, better educational provision. They're doing precisely none of that.

I'm glad the law has been upheld, even if the thought of late term abortions makes me uncomfortable, I have no business making that decision for others.

Had the ruling gone in her favour I fear it would have been a slippery slope. There's already been a concerted campaign to remove screening which so far has failed. If the ruling had gone in her favour, screening would have been the next logical target... And from there the next logical step would be to reduce the 24 week limit. Eventually you end up in a place where women's bodily autonomy has been thoroughly eroded.

It makes me desperately sad that any baby would be aborted, and I really do sympathise with anyone who has made that decision at any stage. This being said, I would never want the option removed, the decision should stay with the mother.

It's a really difficult one. I'm pro choice, but I also don't think aborting at 37 weeks, for example, just because of DS, is something I could support. But as pps already said, being pro choice doesn't mean only being pro choice in circumstances where you would also abort! It's really difficult though. I cannot imagine doing it, but then there will be other situations where women terminate pregnancies where I wouldn't have done so and I still support their choice.

I do see how it could be argued to be discriminatory as well as being something which doesn't sit right with a lot of people. But then if you force women to continue with pregnancies, what happens to the babies who are born to mothers who can't or won't raise them due to their disabilities? But then you can't test for other disabilities in utero and not everyone gives up their baby as soon as they learn they have a disability.

Completely agree @pointythings

But then you can't test for other disabilities in utero and not everyone gives up their baby as soon as they learn they have a disability.

I don’t understand this argument. Because some conditions can’t be detected prenatally, we shouldn’t (or should be discouraged from) testing for conditions that can?

pointy If you really think that then I suppose you would raise no objections to a society that sanctioned the ending of an unborn life even moments from birth, since the points you raise relate to the choice remaining entirely with the pregnant woman. I disagree with your view.

@Aberteifi

I am so angry at posters who think of me and others like me who are called murderers for tfmr after 24 weeks. You have no idea what pain we have been through we did not terminate our pregnancies for fun. I wanted my son it wasn't a case of not wanting to raise him it was that i didn't want to see him suffer and struggle until he died from the condition he had. Until you have walked in our shoes i actually don't give a damn on your opinion but there are families who do care and they don't need to be hurt by mindless people who actually don't give a damn who they hurt.

💐💐💐