Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

[Shirazboobaloo]

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

But the situation would have forced her to have an abortion for a medical condition

No, it would have forced her to make a decision. Not everyone who is given that news chooses to terminate.

This is absolutely and completely wrong. DS is not "fine". Educate yourself.

Interestingly, I have been looking for statistics on whether most are “fine” or whether most are not. Can’t find them anywhere online but they must exist. The information is particularly lacking when you go to the charity organisations webpages. I would have thought that was something they would want to share. I mean, when you look for premature birth statistics you go on Tommy’s or Bliss website and it breaks down survival rates, disability rates for various terms of babies. On DSA’s website, they talk of many and some and most. That is really unhelpful when trying to make a decision.

I don’t think you can compare a body organ to a foetus/unborn child. The organ is part of the dead persons body. The foetus/unborn child is not. It’s got organs of its own and is a being, so has some rights of its own (or should do).

You missed me point entirely. The foetus doesn't have the right to 'leech' off the woman, her right to bodily autonomy is paramount, no matter how much the other party (in this case the foetus) benefits from that 'leeching'. Just like the bodily autonomy of the dead person is paramount, no matter how much the other party (the person needing an organ) would benefit from the 'leeching. Even though in the case of organ transplant, no giving the transplant would result in that person death (thus they lose their rights to life), because one individuals rights to anything, can not come at the loss of another individuals rights (in this case the right to bodily autonomy).

The foetus may have rights (may because it's debatable) but as long as it's existence relies on leeching off another that others right to bodily autonomy comes first.

INo, it would have forced her to make a decision. Not everyone who is given that news chooses to terminate

But OP would, which is why she said she felt forced to terminate. Are you always this offensively obtuse? That person is talking about her lived experience and feelings and you're banging on about your abstract interpretation of her wording. WTF is wrong with you?

This is going to sound horrible but, as with many disabilities, the general public only see the "acceptable" ones on the media.

As awful as that sentence is, it's so fucking true and you're right. It's really appalling that our society is like this. But then, the media are like this on everything. It's just sad that they pick and choose who to display, who is acceptable.

She would have FELT AS IF SHE WAS FORCED. Yes, she would have been forced to make a decision, as you say. That is the point.

Which is what she should have said.

Nobody is saying she would have been held down and forcibly had the pregnancy terminated, so stop arguing against that. Get a clue and have some bloody compassion.

That is how it reads. Language around this is very important. Have some bloody compassion for the women in her situation who read that thinking someone could force them to have an abortion. Get a clue that goes beyond your narrow view and actually involves reason my responses.

This is going to sound horrible but, as with many disabilities, the general public only see the "acceptable" ones on the media.

It sounds horrible because it is horrible. Every DS person is acceptable. If you don't think so, it's your problem and no wonder you haven't seen them with people like you in the world.

Have some bloody compassion for the women in her situation who read that thinking someone could force them to have an abortion

Unlike you, I credit women with the intelligence to know that nobody is literally forced to have an abortion. You know that, you know what the other poster meant, you're talking absolute nonsense, so again: wtf is wrong with you?

@cloudacious

This is going to sound horrible but, as with many disabilities, the general public only see the "acceptable" ones on the media.

It sounds horrible because it is horrible. Every DS person is acceptable. If you don't think so, it's your problem and no wonder you haven't seen them with people like you in the world.

Oh come on, you know it wasn't meant like that. Acceptable was in quotation marks for a reason.

The fact it, the general public don't know the full extent of a lot of disabilities. It feels much nicer to see lovely smiley children with Down syndrome living good lives. The reality can be very far from that pretty picture, and it doesn't sell.

@HeartsAndClubs

Anyone who has ever had a disability detected will know that dr’s paint the bleakest possible picture in fact termination is encouraged in most instances.

How many of the people saying that this is manipulation would be happy to terminate their own viable pregnancy beyond 24 weeks, 28 weeks maybe, 32 weeks, 38 weeks?

The fact is that it’s not just disabilities which are incompatible with life which mean a pregnancy can be terminated. You can terminate. Pregnancy where any disability is detected e.g. club foot, lack of development of say, a leg, the term disability equals disposable in the eyes of many.

Of course it goes without saying that some disabilities are so severe that it is possibly even in the baby’s best interests for the pregnancy to be terminated. But it’s a sad society when a person with a disability who is capable of formulating her own coherent argument is said to be manipulated rather than thought to be capable of independent thought.

Apparently even until birth for a cleft lip I read. Terrible.

That person is talking about her lived experience and feelings and you're banging on about your abstract interpretation of her wording. WTF is wrong with you?

You can choose to ignore what I have actually said and be outraged on behalf of others if you like. No point in engaging further.

It is what it is, but the woman's right to choose supersedes any baby's right to life before it's born. Always.
I don't give a damn whether a baby can lead a normal life or whatever. It is not my nor your right to tell a woman what to do with her uterus. End of.

@Sirzy

tigger I can’t even begin to imagine how hard that must have been for you and your family. Thank you for being strong enough to share your story

I second that. It's thanks to Tigger85 that I am seeing the other side much more clearly, and definitely seeing pro choice as the best way forward as everyone has to decide what level of disability they can cope with as a parent. Absolutely heartbreaking topic💐

’That is how it reads. Language around this is very important. Have some bloody compassion for the women in her situation who read that thinking someone could force them to have an abortion’

Ok…

Back in the real world…

Apparently even until birth for a cleft lip I read. Terrible.

Educate yourself. Cleft lip and palate on a scan can be indicators of much more severe issues, some incompatible with life. These can and should be investigated so that the woman can take an informed decision. I very much doubt that people abort for cleft lip and palate alone, with no complications.

Honestly, the so-called pro-lifers do try so hard to make it look as if women abort babies for the most trivial of reasons with a happy smile on their faces.

The ruling is correct. It's almost impossible to discuss these issues without getting emotive but and the end of the day the question is reduced to legal body autonomy.

My brother has DS. He is not and has never been high-functioning. His childhood was extremely difficult. He's never been fully verbal and did not walk until he was 12. He has needed round the clock care his entire life. He is now in the latter stages of dementia and is once again no longer mobile. I am his only living relative now. He doesn't know who I am. I saw first hand the difficulties and the sacrifices my mother made. When all her friends were dealing with children becoming independent adults, she was essentially still parenting a toddler, well into her 80s. She died terrified for his future care, which I have taken over.

I'm not saying my brother has had a tragic and pointless life. Our memories are full of happy and joyous occasions. He had a wonderful personality until the dementia kicked in.

As another poster in a previous situation has said. If I had ever been in the situation where I received a positive test for DS in pregnancy, I would have terminated. I know the reality of the care needs and would not have taken it on. Crucially, I would have had to sacrifice the care for my brother in order to look after my own child.

And this is the crux of the matter. Everyone's situation is different and the only needs that matter in pregnancy are that of the pregnant woman. Many women will continue with teh pregnancy and that is a good thing. Others will not, either because they know they cannot handle the situation; because they will not be able to afford to give up work to become a full-time carer; have no option to convert their home for accessibility, or because they have other children or dependents with complex needs and need to devote time and energy there. All of these situations are valid and all of these women deserve the right to choose.

I will defend to the death, the rights of people with DS and other disabilities and am actually involved in several groups lobbying for better care facilities, better medical understanding, and end to discrimination etc. My stance on abortion does not change this one bit. I am fiercely protective of my brother yet I have had abuse levelled at me in the past when I've voiced my opinions on screening and termination. Fighting for a woman's right to choose and fighting for my brother's right to receive care are not mutually exclusive things.

@DunderMifflinSalesRep

Can't help feeling that Heidi has been manipulated by pro lifers into taking this action.

Me too.

@pointythings

Apparently even until birth for a cleft lip I read. Terrible.

Educate yourself. Cleft lip and palate on a scan can be indicators of much more severe issues, some incompatible with life. These can and should be investigated so that the woman can take an informed decision. I very much doubt that people abort for cleft lip and palate alone, with no complications.

Honestly, the so-called pro-lifers do try so hard to make it look as if women abort babies for the most trivial of reasons with a happy smile on their faces.

Lots and lots of babies have cleft palate without any other conditions - I know this as it is far more common outside the U.K. & yes I'm the U.K. many do abort cleft palate babies.

Apparently even until birth for a cleft lip I read. Terrible.

I’m going to assume you are suggesting people might choose to terminate because of a cosmetic defect. As I understand, the reason this is considered is because of the plethora of problems which can come with CLP and the risk of comorbidities.

It sounds horrible because it is horrible. Every DS person is acceptable. If you don't think so, it's your problem and no wonder you haven't seen them with people like you in the world.

Even if this is what PP meant (and it clearly wasn’t) this is the kind of comment which feeds in to that rosy picture people want to paint. In an ideal world, everyone should be treated with dignity and respect, but you just have to look at the number of ableist posts there are on here, particularly around disabled kids in schools being called disruptive or violent to know that your rosy view of the world isn’t real life.

Lots and lots of babies have cleft palate without any other conditions - I know this as it is far more common outside the U.K. & yes I'm the U.K. many do abort cleft palate babies.

Again with the “lots” and “many” If you want to assert women are choosing to abort their babies because they won’t have a smiley baby, you need to back that up with actual facts and figures.

@BoredZelda

She would have FELT AS IF SHE WAS FORCED. Yes, she would have been forced to make a decision, as you say. That is the point.

Which is what she should have said.

Nobody is saying she would have been held down and forcibly had the pregnancy terminated, so stop arguing against that. Get a clue and have some bloody compassion.

That is how it reads. Language around this is very important. Have some bloody compassion for the women in her situation who read that thinking someone could force them to have an abortion. Get a clue that goes beyond your narrow view and actually involves reason my responses.

I agree with this. It is how I read it too. I apologise to that poster if that was not what she meant.

It’s also very difficult to counter some of the hugely misinformed posts about ‘lazy women waiting 6 months to terminate a baby because it’s a little bit different’, because most of them are underneath a photo or post about a person’s lovely child who has special needs.

I want to debunk the myths and stick up for women who have had a TFMR, but I just know I would be called a heartless monster, and to be honest writing underneath such a photo would feel all kinds of wrong to me.

I noticed Sarah Roberts posted a photo of her son as a baby, not his current age of I think around 9? I love reading about his adventures and I think she’s a lovely lady who writes well.

But it just seems a bit like a way of shutting debate down by making it so personal that you can’t disagree without making it look like a direct attack on their child. Which is very unfair as what they’re trying to do is introduce a law that wouldn’t even affect their child directly, but it could affect all of us.

I would happily parent a child with Down’s syndrome - (ignoring the higher risk of heart issues for the moment) but I wouldn’t want to care for an adult with downs with the early early dementia and the common issues around weight management and capacity and relationships and capacity and the rest , watching ones parents succumb to dementia is hard enough but to watch ones child- I am not strong enough

Can't help feeling that Heidi has been manipulated by pro lifers into taking this action.

And perhaps DS charity organisations?

I don't know much about cleft lip and palate, but in some cases does it not mean the brain is at the top of the mouth so actually a really serious and dangerous condition?

@BoredZelda

Lots and lots of babies have cleft palate without any other conditions - I know this as it is far more common outside the U.K. & yes I'm the U.K. many do abort cleft palate babies.

Again with the “lots” and “many” If you want to assert women are choosing to abort their babies because they won’t have a smiley baby, you need to back that up with actual facts and figures.

It's incredibly common in the UK. We have really good cleft services and repairs are done really quite early so you probably see quite a few children who had clefts - you just won't immediately notice.

I notice sometimes because of personal experience, but mostly in adults who were repaired with older techniques that are slightly more visible (obviously the extent of the cleft makes a difference as well).

Cleft babies are gorgeous, both before and after their repairs, and my experience is that clinical staff are hugely positive about eventual outcome (again, depending on extent of cleft) and families get a lot of support.