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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The economy has shafted millennials: now it wants their offspring too

435 replies

CarryOnNurse20 · 23/09/2021 18:44

AIBU to ask your opinion on this article?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/23/economy-millennials-children-low-birthrate?CMP=fb_cif&fbclid=IwAR1C57OgCdGCGhSr5uVLI5tRVeMCq-eNtyyxEuUiYOjYgSn5P2w3yMHQeTM

As a dreaded millennial and a mother I find it very sad and very true for a lot of people I know.

OP posts:
CaribouCarafe · 23/09/2021 23:14

@doublemonkey

I have absolutely no hope of there being an NHS, pensions, or adequate social care by the time I hit retirement. It does get grating to hear older generations try and offer 'helpful advice' when their own situations seemed much less bleak. It's completely irritating for them to fixate on the few luxuries we do enjoy, whilst also overlooking all the challenges we have that they did not.

You sound like you are expecting End Times! And for perspective, generations before you, including mine, had way worse prospects than you.

To be fair, the climate change portion of my post is a major part of why it feels bleak. Nothing as cataclysmic as the impending climate change disaster has been experienced in living history.
Samuraisammy · 23/09/2021 23:16

@wellards well that’s just it, move out of London and visit your family. You don’t have to live in the same area or even work in London.

AwkwardPaws27 · 23/09/2021 23:18

That’d take a couple around 2 years to hard save a 10% deposit of their wages whilst living at parents but no.

I was kicked out three months after turning 16. I bought a flat at 25 - home insecurity in my teens was a big drive for me but I wasn't in a position to save anything until I was 22, & even then it was only a few hundred a month. Luckily I got a 94% mortgage (there were a few available in 2014), interest rates were high initially but rents soon caught up.

OddSockReunion · 23/09/2021 23:22

@TheABC

Also China reversing their policy & pushing for 3 children will have a big impact.

It might. But when they relaxed the policy to two children, there was not much of a baby bounce, then. Chinese couples face similar problems to us; the cost of living in cities, workplace sexism for women and the cost of childcare, plus supporting elderly parents, in many cases.

On top of that, China also has a sex ratio imbalance; up to 30 million missing girls.

Yes. It's become a cultural norm now to have one child and now most people do not want more, apparently.
Samuraisammy · 23/09/2021 23:22

@AwkwardPaws27 you have done well, and if you’d read my other comments I stated I understand not everyone can move back or stay with their parents.

Bogofftosomewherehot · 23/09/2021 23:24

@EatYourVegetables

www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

According to this, £7000 in 1974 would be about £74 600 in 2020.

I don’t think there are many houses or flats you can buy today for £74 600, avocado or no avocado.

@EatYourVegetables You're not comparing apples with apples. Its also the cost of the loan. I certainly remember interest rates at 15% - nothing like the lower rates today. Millennials have never seen rates anywhere near this high. Your argument isn't valid.
wellards · 23/09/2021 23:24

well that’s just it, move out of London and visit your family. You don’t have to live in the same area or even work in London.

Well I don't see it as simple as that. I'm a 2nd gen immigrant as his DH & we have no other ties outside of London so it's important for us to be near family & our community. We are fortunate to be able to afford it.

AutistGoth · 23/09/2021 23:27

As I recall, around ten years ago, when more Millennials did live at home, the narrative from the media was "Why are these fully grown adults still living with their parents? Why don't they move out?" Now, it's changed to "They can't afford a mortgage because they buy avacados and smartphones and want to live like they see on Instagram."

The media just enjoys blaming Millennials, that's all it is.

For what it's worth, my parents said I was allowed to stay past eighteen, but they made life very unpleasant for me (no smiles, no hugs, no encouragement, your depression and anxiety is not our problem) until I did leave at 20.

Samuraisammy · 23/09/2021 23:30

@wellards I understand where you’re coming from but that’s a lifestyle choice then, an understandable one but still a choice. We had no family or friends, where we moved to. Made new friends.

Lockdownbear · 23/09/2021 23:30

@chocolateorangeinhaler

Hmmm well I have my theory that this has slowly been ticking away like a time bomb since the mid 70's. Obsession over house price increases has got to the point where nobody can afford a house until in their 30s. My parents bought their first house in 72 when they were 19 & 21. That's unheard of now. Every stick of furniture was second hand and they didn't have a TV for the first six months. People nowadays wouldn't accept living like that. We've been brainwashed into being consumers with the fear that your not 'normal' unless you have the latest must have thing. The amount of people in debt because of keeping up with the Jones's is scary. Childcare is extortionate in the uk compared to other countries. Schools are over subscribed and there is the constant underlying whispers that the environment is shot and any future generations won't make it. No wonder people don't want to bring more humans into this mess.
What jobs did your parents have?

In 1970 mine were refused a mortgage because my DDad was a tradesman paid per hour rather than salary.
My DH was the same in the 90s.

wellards · 23/09/2021 23:32

Yes. It's become a cultural norm now to have one child and now most people do not want more, apparently.

That is true & they are looking at incentives to encourage people. Some see the declining birth rate as a threat to national security & many are predicting they will just abolish any limits.

wellards · 23/09/2021 23:33

@Samuraisammy are you a 1st or 2nd gen immigrant?

As a said we are fortunate to be able to make that choice.

Samuraisammy · 23/09/2021 23:33

@AutistGoth I get it, but you ignore what the media says and get on with it. My parents soon regretted allowing us to move back and didn’t give us a smooth ride. Not sure why you think you’re the few people to of had an unpleasant time at home post 18.

OddSockReunion · 23/09/2021 23:35

You're not comparing apples with apples. Its also the cost of the loan. I certainly remember interest rates at 15% - nothing like the lower rates today. Millennials have never seen rates anywhere near this high. Your argument isn't valid.

First time buyers with a low percentage of equity do not get the most favourable interest rates. Often ~5% even now. A higher effective rate than that of they have to use "Help to Buy" or whatever. And given that they're borrow such a larger multiple of their salary, this still means that they are paying a much higher percentage of their post-tax income on housing costs than any previous generation in recent history. Rents are driven by house prices and interest rates so the same applies to rental costs.

It's indisputable. The facts show very clearly that housing costs are are far higher proportion of younger people's budgets than they have been in the Gen X or Baby Boomer generations. This is a fact that is well documented and no credible economist disputes. So please stop trotting out your 15% argument as it convinces nobody.

Yes, that must have been crap and had an awful impact on lots of people. We know this. But - it was temporary. And those who survived the storm did very well. Surely you can understand that 15% of a small amount for a short time is less of a burden than 5% of an enormous amount indefinitely, if you can even get to that point??

I am one of the lucky ones btw, I have a very nice house. But please try to be rational about this: it is totally understandable why people are so upset about the multiple wrongs shoved onto their generation and, to add insult to injury, their parents generation on the whole blaming them for it rather than being ashamed that they reaped all the benefits while these problems were created and did nothing about it. It's embarrassing to read tbh. I remember learning all about climate change at school 35 years ago, doing projects about it for Blue Peter. Did the adults listen? Nope.

wellards · 23/09/2021 23:35

Lots of people can't just move back in with their parents for a number of reasons.

location
relationships
space
parents might not be able to afford it.

OddSockReunion · 23/09/2021 23:38

@wellards

Yes. It's become a cultural norm now to have one child and now most people do not want more, apparently.

That is true & they are looking at incentives to encourage people. Some see the declining birth rate as a threat to national security & many are predicting they will just abolish any limits.

Some countries in Europe e.g. Hungary are already offering significant cash incentives and tax breaks to people who have more than two children, too. You get cash towards buying or building a property, and an exemption from paying income tax!!
Samuraisammy · 23/09/2021 23:42

@wellards I understand that, but most couples choose not to even try even when it’s an option.

earsup · 23/09/2021 23:43

my mums first house was £500 in the late 1950's....a wreck...they did it up slowly and moved up the ladder etc...no luxuries etc....a lot of dads family bought houses in Hackney under the glc scheme....houses cost about 1k to 3k in the early 1970's...not super cheap at the time as also houses were needing a lot of work but they didnt have holidays or gagdets etc....those houses now worth over 2m so when they retire and sell up they are laughing...but house prices have zoomed ahead...years ago you could find something cheap that needed work...not now.

doublemonkey · 23/09/2021 23:44

@CaribouCarafe, we grew up expecting to be nuked at any moment. 🍄☁ 😂

OddSockReunion · 23/09/2021 23:45

[quote Samuraisammy]**@wellards* I understand that, but most* couples choose not to even try even when it’s an option.[/quote]
To assume that most couples have that option is a big assumption and seems highly implausible. Do you have any evidence for your assertion that it's a choice?

AutistGoth · 23/09/2021 23:46

@Samuraisammy and here we have a fine example of how the goalposts move. Ten years ago, it was "Why are fully grown adults still lving with their parents?" Now, it's "Why didn't you live at your parents and save up?"

Your comments are a classic example of how everything that happens is somehow our own fault.

Also, quite frankly, (and this is the first time I've ever been so abrasive on MN, I usually avoid confrontation) how dare you imply that being treated with utter contempt by my own parents was something that I should just have to suck up until I had enough money from my internship (which they bullied me into applying for) to leave that house? How dare you? Just as well I had an understanding DP, now DH who helped me to leave there. Or should we have forgone getting married because weddings are a luxury?

A classic example of the worst kind of attitude that Boomers have towards Millennials.

wellards · 23/09/2021 23:47

I understand that, but most couples choose not to even try even when it’s an option.

How on earth can you even make that assumption?

AwkwardPaws27 · 23/09/2021 23:49

@Samuraisammy I was incredibly lucky with the timing; I managed to pull it off just before Crossrail sent local prices up by around 50%. If I'd have been a few years later, it would have been out of my reach (I'd really struggle to buy exactly the same flat now, despite earning more & saving for longer).

The wage to house price gap, & wage stagnation, is a real issue. Living costs have only gone up, yet I've seen adverts for a job I had in 2012 (same position, same company) which has only increased by £1k in that period.

Going back to the birth rate impact- I really want kids, unfortunately we're waiting for referral to a recurrent miscarriage clinic, but childcare costs are a big consideration too. If we are lucky enough to have two I'll have to be very careful with spacing; no way we can afford two sets of nursery fees. I specifically stuck with public sector employers (lower salary but better pension & mat leave) from this perspective too, & probably stayed in a couple of roles longer than I should have as leaving would mean waiting to TTC before being eligible for mat pay packages.
Having three or four maternity leaves, with the potential career impacts, when we'd then definitely need me to earn a good salary too if we've got three or four kids to support through extracurricular activities, university, driving lessons, bigger house, bigger car etc... I don't think it's surprising that many families are having one or two children, rather than stretching to a bigger family

AutistGoth · 23/09/2021 23:50

@wellards, SamuraiSammy has all the answers as to why Millennials are struggling. It's all our own fault, apparently.

OddSockReunion · 23/09/2021 23:54

@OddSockReunion

You're not comparing apples with apples. Its also the cost of the loan. I certainly remember interest rates at 15% - nothing like the lower rates today. Millennials have never seen rates anywhere near this high. Your argument isn't valid.

First time buyers with a low percentage of equity do not get the most favourable interest rates. Often ~5% even now. A higher effective rate than that of they have to use "Help to Buy" or whatever. And given that they're borrow such a larger multiple of their salary, this still means that they are paying a much higher percentage of their post-tax income on housing costs than any previous generation in recent history. Rents are driven by house prices and interest rates so the same applies to rental costs.

It's indisputable. The facts show very clearly that housing costs are are far higher proportion of younger people's budgets than they have been in the Gen X or Baby Boomer generations. This is a fact that is well documented and no credible economist disputes. So please stop trotting out your 15% argument as it convinces nobody.

Yes, that must have been crap and had an awful impact on lots of people. We know this. But - it was temporary. And those who survived the storm did very well. Surely you can understand that 15% of a small amount for a short time is less of a burden than 5% of an enormous amount indefinitely, if you can even get to that point??

I am one of the lucky ones btw, I have a very nice house. But please try to be rational about this: it is totally understandable why people are so upset about the multiple wrongs shoved onto their generation and, to add insult to injury, their parents generation on the whole blaming them for it rather than being ashamed that they reaped all the benefits while these problems were created and did nothing about it. It's embarrassing to read tbh. I remember learning all about climate change at school 35 years ago, doing projects about it for Blue Peter. Did the adults listen? Nope.

I should also add to this that taxes are higher now die to fiscal drag (tax rates not being uprated with inflation): you used to in the '80s need to be earning the equivalent of £85k today be paying higher rate income tax. Now it's less than half of that. Tax cuts subsidised by North Sea oil which a responsible Government like Norway instead invested into what is now one of the largest wealth funds in the world to give all of its population security in perpetuity.

Public services were decent. Students could access benefits in the holidays if they couldn't find work! Student grants. How do you expect people to save paying an additional 9% tax on their income towards a student loan, when rents already eat sometimes 50% of take home pay?

And don't even get me started on the final salary pensions companies committed to any are still paying to baby boomers which have been shown to be one of the reasons why the salaries of those still working are so depressed and are still not back to 2008 levels for those who started work around the time of the financial crash, despite all of the inflation in living costs in the last 13 years.

Either you are clueless about economics, or you are being facetious. Either way, it makes you look very silly.