The economy has shafted millennials: now it wants their offspring too

[CarryOnNurse20]

AIBU to ask your opinion on this article?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/23/economy-millennials-children-low-birthrate?CMP=fb_cif&fbclid=IwAR1C57OgCdGCGhSr5uVLI5tRVeMCq-eNtyyxEuUiYOjYgSn5P2w3yMHQeTM

As a dreaded millennial and a mother I find it very sad and very true for a lot of people I know.

I'm a Millennial. For me, it isn't so much that I begrudge earlier generations for having it easier (and several other people are correct when they say that earlier generations had their own problems too), it's the fact that it is fashionable in the media to blame Millennials for not being able to afford their own house, be in a worse position than their parents etc. If earlier generations would admit that most people born post 1980s simply won't be able to afford things that they could because of rising prices and lack of job stability, I wouldn't mind. But instead, we're simply portrayed as selfish, childish and lazy. That attitude (which doesn't come from all previous generations, I agree) is what really upsets and angers me.

We can't afford a mortgage and children because rising house prices, lack of employment, low wages and the fact that jobs for life aren't really a thing any more. Not because of avocados and smartphones!

Speaking of smartphones, when they first were introduced, nobody needed them. Then, for better or worse, society changed so they became necessary. Look at how many apps we had to download to get out of lockdown. We couldn't enter a building without scanning a code, and you can't scan a code without a smartphone. That's just one example of course, but it is indicative of how society changes to create a demand: that is, the demand fir consumers to buy smartphones and make money for the tech industry.

As for me, my smartphone was a freebie to say thank you to my DH for staying with his mobile company since 2001. I got it in 2017 and I'll be keeping it until it dies. I can't afford to replace it, so I'll probably have to go back to a "dumb phone." Though I can't say I'd mind all that much.

@DukeOfEarlGrey I was confusing X with Y

I bought a one-bed flat in 1987 that was a cheapo conversion from a large terraced house in Kilburn, which was still IRA fundraiser territory I didn't dare venture near a pub but the Jubilee Line was extended there and so it became a cheap option to live centrally while working in the centre of The City. And now, you'd be spending £350k to live there.

And yet the world population (and the UK’s) rises, seemingly unstoppable. In 1976 U.K. was 56 million.

The generation blame game is unhelpful and just causes resentment.

We just have to deal with what we are given and make the most of what we can.

So I am not entirely convinced that Generation x and Millenials are much worse off.

Well you could just read up on the stats. Why is the benchmark not dying in the war?

@PickUpAPepper but you understand why the UKs population has increased don't you?

@PickUpAPepper good point, yes there's definitely a difference from one end of a generation to the other. I was born five years before the end of Gen X and admittedly just just got onto the property ladder months before the boom really hit houses in our area. Many of my older friends who are now in their early to mid fifties have second homes because they were able to buy a flat or a house, often in now highly desirable parts of London, on a single salary, and then met their partner who also owned a London property on a single salary.

Student loans existed when I was a student but only for living, tuition fees were introduced soon after. Grants were just being phased out but until then had allowed our older friends even greater privileges.

My dsil and our niece are at opposite ends of the Millenial generation and because dsil married someone with a house (a Gen-Xer ) and a good job she lives a far different life to our niece who is really struggling to get on the housing ladder but likes her avocados.

So in conclusion I guess we shouldn't make sweeping generalisations!

[quote blubberyboo]@chocolateorangeinhaler

I agree with the furniture thing. People used to scrimp a deposit and then begged and took donations of everything from second hand crockery to big furniture. Nothing matched and it was just the way to start out.
You moved in and decorated a room at a time or not!

Now everyone wants an Instagramable house Mrs Hinch style. And weddings in the tens of thousands.[/quote]
It's Thatcher's Britain.

A consumer society built on cheap credit, only without the social housing (they were sold off along with everything else)

Im not quite sure what the aim of that barb is. Part of it is local increase, part is immigration. There will be more as lands become unlivable due to climate change. Lots of good reasons for humans to not render more land uninhabitable via war, but conflicts increase as pressure grows.

I have quite a few colleagues & school mum friends who are in there mid 40s upwards who have quite a few properties despite not earning mega bucks. There was also the fact lending criteria changed after 08 which tightened things up & BTLs were more profitable in the past plus SD tax changes. My neighbour has 11 BTLs!

I'm lucky mine are European so they have some chance of making a better future & I would encourage any young person to look abroad but than that compounds the issue with an ageing population.

Well, I for one would love to leave the UK and live and work elsewhere but that route has been largely closed off to English and Welsh Millennials/Gen Z too because of Brexit.

Surely an exponentially rising birth rate can't be a good thing. A couple has two kids, who each have two kids, who also have kids. Where does it end?

People usually answer that we need people to care for the elderly, but we will continue need more and more and more.

@PickUpAPepper it's not a barb

I said birth rates are reducing in lots of countries & you replied And yet the world population (and the UK’s) rises, seemingly unstoppable

Birth rates have reduced dramatically in many countries, that doesn't necessarily equal a reduction in population growth because much is driven by people living longer. I'm not sure what you are saying we should do about the fact people are living longer?

@PickUpAPepper

And yet the world population (and the UK’s) rises, seemingly unstoppable. In 1976 U.K. was 56 million.

"Unstoppable", mostly because we are all living longer which is (mostly) good thing. However, the traditional retirement plan simply isn't going to happen for my generation (millennial).

Birth rates for Europe and Asia are below replacement rate, at this time of writing, so (in theory), the global population is set to stabilise or even shrink. A lot depends on what happens on the African continent.

My DC are Gen Z - 24 and 21, and both plan to have children. How they will afford it I just don't know

For years we've heard it said "don't have kids if you can't afford them".
People stop having kids. "The birthrate is too low".

Or "we're going to need more immigration for labour shortages". "We voted to leave the EU to cut down on immigration, we can't be having more."

@AutistGoth

I'm a Millennial. For me, it isn't so much that I begrudge earlier generations for having it easier (and several other people are correct when they say that earlier generations had their own problems too), it's the fact that it is fashionable in the media to blame Millennials for not being able to afford their own house, be in a worse position than their parents etc. If earlier generations would admit that most people born post 1980s simply won't be able to afford things that they could because of rising prices and lack of job stability, I wouldn't mind. But instead, we're simply portrayed as selfish, childish and lazy. That attitude (which doesn't come from all previous generations, I agree) is what really upsets and angers me.

We can't afford a mortgage and children because rising house prices, lack of employment, low wages and the fact that jobs for life aren't really a thing any more. Not because of avocados and smartphones!

Speaking of smartphones, when they first were introduced, nobody needed them. Then, for better or worse, society changed so they became necessary. Look at how many apps we had to download to get out of lockdown. We couldn't enter a building without scanning a code, and you can't scan a code without a smartphone. That's just one example of course, but it is indicative of how society changes to create a demand: that is, the demand fir consumers to buy smartphones and make money for the tech industry.

As for me, my smartphone was a freebie to say thank you to my DH for staying with his mobile company since 2001. I got it in 2017 and I'll be keeping it until it dies. I can't afford to replace it, so I'll probably have to go back to a "dumb phone." Though I can't say I'd mind all that much.

Exactly this. Of course other generations had it worse in some areas too. But don't insist you could afford a house in 1970 when you were 18 because you worked hard and we didn't.

And all this bullshit that the reason young people struggle is because they buy brand new furniture and tech is just so much rubbish. Yeah, it's buying a new sofa on credit that stopped them getting a house on one wage at 21 seriously though I know no one like that. I am not unusual among my friends. I am 33, still renting. We have had secondhand furniture since we lived together. Our TV was given to us in 2013 by a friend who was emigrating. Our phones are old, off contract on sim only plans. We each need a car for work, his is 21 years old and mine is 13 years old. We have (God forbid us going for luxuries) broadband and Netflix. Our dishwasher is secondhand, our washing machine is financed after our secondhand one died, our fridge freezer is second hand. I switch for the cheapest of everything all the time. Our bloody bathroom sink was bought off Facebook marketplace. Yet our rent, bills and essential outgoings (groceries, fuel) are about 75% of our income, before buying kids clothes or trying to save. And that's only because our landlord is an acquaintance who hasn't raised rent in 5 years. If he was charging us what he could it would be about £250 a month more. Tell me again how I'm just feckless and if I worked hard I'd bloody be able to afford stuff. We both work hard in professional/skilled jobs.

@Hollyhead

The 1970s flat price is irrelevant without considering interest rates, so if the equivalent price of a flat would now be 74000, assuming interest of 8% the repayment equivalent on a 25 year mortgage would be 540 per month - which is very similar to if you had a £150000 mortgage now which would be typical for a starter flat outside the SE. It’s the deposit which is crippling for people now, not so much the actual repayments once you’ve got enough together. I would bring back 100% mortgages but for a lower multiple of salary - maybe minimum wage (because you can always pick up minimum wage) * 3 or something. It would really help people in very poor areas.

My in-laws in the early 80s had a 21% interest rate on their mortgage!

The switch to the two-income family has also had an impact both on salaries and housing prices, unfortunately. It seems like a nasty trick, you thought you'd double your income and instead you give your employer twice the productivity but retain the same purchasing power. Which is hardest, of course, on the people who are in jobs that don't pay enough to get by alone.

@ColorMagicBarbie

Surely an exponentially rising birth rate can't be a good thing. A couple has two kids, who each have two kids, who also have kids. Where does it end?

People usually answer that we need people to care for the elderly, but we will continue need more and more and more.

The real problem is higher life expectancy (in terms of these logistics). The average person lives too long now.

Therefore, we need a bigger working age population, which will either come from high birth rates or mass immigration. The problem at that point is overpopulation.

I am on the young end of millennial, born in 1995. I was talking to a friend recently who went to private school and is now a very high earner and he was saying the fees for his alma mater have gone up enormously even since the time he was there and he doesn’t know who can afford it now. I think it’s definitely harder to provide our children with the standard of living our parents provided for us, which makes me nervous as my parents had a lot of debt to finance their lifestyle. I would never have more than two children on environmental grounds, but I’ll probably only have one on financial grounds, despite DP and I both being highly educated professionals. I have no idea how people on low incomes can afford to have multiple children.

@wellards absolutely not, for those that have found themselves renting to save for a deposit I completely understand how that’s tough.
For young couples today, firstly no one gets engaged until they’ve had a dog together for 5 bloody years, then they decide it’s okay to pool wages to save. So yes it’s got a lot to do with people’s commitment to want to knuckle down together and save for a purpose.
There literally over ten flats/terraces in my good area from 130-140 grand. And there’s even more for less than that in slightly sh!tter but still okay areas nearby.
That’d take a couple around 2 years to hard save a 10% deposit of their wages whilst living at parents but no. Let’s take an instagram holiday to Singapore, attend 2 hen dos, 3 stag dos, a wedding in Greece, and a sh!ting holiday to Disneyland.

Birth rates for Europe and Asia are below replacement rate, at this time of writing, so (in theory), the global population is set to stabilise or even shrink. A lot depends on what happens on the African continent.

Yes

"And 23 nations - including Spain and Japan - are expected to see their populations halve by 2100."

Also China reversing their policy & pushing for 3 children will have a big impact.

It's called Planned Obsolescence - a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life or a purposely frail design

It's called Capitalism.

For young couples today, firstly no one gets engaged until they’ve had a dog together for 5 bloody years, then they decide it’s okay to pool wages to save. So yes it’s got a lot to do with people’s commitment to want to knuckle down together and save for a purpose.

But what are you basing this on? anecdotal evidence about people you know? I don't doubt some don't save or live lavishly but the majority? If I was paying rent I'd have no money for such luxuries as it's about 3x my mortgage.

@wellards

I worry about the ageing population, the NI hike is just not going to cut it & that's now. In 30 yrs there will be fewer young people.

I think it's ridiculous that a 20 something has to pay ££££ for university & yes they don't have to go but employers need to stop making degrees pre requisites. Then pay ££££ whilst they save ££££ for a house with a 30 yr mortgage. They also should pay ££££ into a pension scheme which is less favourable to them & look forward to a state pension at 70? Plus the NHS won't be free at the point of care or free prescriptions over 60 in 20 years time.

I'm lucky mine are European so they have some chance of making a better future & I would encourage any young person to look abroad but than that compounds the issue with an ageing population.

They don’t pay ££££ though. They ( and I) pay a small bit a month towards it. Why should someone whose job doesn’t gave a degree as a prerequisite such as a care worker or retail staff use their taxes to fund my job. Less humans are no bad thing. They’ll cope.