To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

@Blossomtoes

My mother couldn't afford to go to grammar school. Her family needed her to go out to work. It wasn't that much of a leveller.

She went out to work when she was 11? Wow.

No, when she was 15. They couldn't afford the uniforms for grammar for her and her brothers, so her brothers went.

No, when she was 15. They couldn't afford the uniforms for grammar for her and her brothers, so her brothers went

So grammar school was a leveller unless you had misogynist parents.

I don't think that was an unusual way of thinking, my MIL had the same experience.

The system also really didn't address SEN issues at all, I don't know if the surviving remnants do now?

Darkchocolateandcoffee - I never mentioned anything about Teslas. Thst must be someone else.

To phrase it another way - where should contextualisation end?

You are saying that a child who wins a bursary to a top school should now be deemed ‘privileged’ in terms of uni entry. Ok fair enough.

But how is this really any different to a student who gets into say, Oxford, directly from a very low-achieving school? You could say both have beaten the odds - just at different times.

Imagine if degrees were contextualised. Students from lower-ranking institutions or unis with less funding were specifically targeted by recruitment firms. A 2:2 from back-of-beyond poly is now deemed equivalent to a 1st from Oxford. How would the student who had got into Oxford , against the odds, from a poorly -performing state feel if this achievement later becomes a disadvantage at the point of job entry?

I negatively judge anyone whose children are in fee-paying schools (with the exception of a parent I know whose child is autistic and non-verbal and for whom she can afford a super-intensive and expensive specialist school- and even then I can only think of all the children in the same situation who are stuck with whatever sub-standard SEN programme that's on offer in their area).

You want the best for your children? Great. Get your arse (and your money) involved in improving the standard of education for all.

@moch11

Darkchocolateandcoffee - I never mentioned anything about Teslas. Thst must be someone else.

To phrase it another way - where should contextualisation end?

You are saying that a child who wins a bursary to a top school should now be deemed ‘privileged’ in terms of uni entry. Ok fair enough.

But how is this really any different to a student who gets into say, Oxford, directly from a very low-achieving school? You could say both have beaten the odds - just at different times.

Imagine if degrees were contextualised. Students from lower-ranking institutions or unis with less funding were specifically targeted by recruitment firms. A 2:2 from back-of-beyond poly is now deemed equivalent to a 1st from Oxford. How would the student who had got into Oxford , against the odds, from a poorly -performing state feel if this achievement later becomes a disadvantage at the point of job entry?

Why you insist on undermining the grades of people who go to state schools? The scenario you are portraying does not exist. It is a fact that a 1st from Oxford, is not the same as a 1st from Oxford Brookes actually, despite a full system of External Examiners and checks and balance to make them equal.

It is obvious as said earlier on this thread (and elsewhere) this arguments are exactly the same as those put forward by those who insist promoting women into certain circles lowers the level.

As if the system is really equal opportunities for everyone.

it is simply not true that private school kids are discriminated against. It is against the interest of very selective institutions that have always operated under the premise of being selective and elitist. This is why people want to go in. They absolutely know this and they will not keep it this way.

*and they will keep it this way..

I believe it is 20% of children at fee paying schools at sixth form level however.

"About half of the parents of these pupils did not themselves attend independent schools. Regional variations in the numbers attending independent schools are huge: 4% in the whole of Scotland, but 25% in Edinburgh; 10% in the South East but 13% in London. Some 20% of all UK sixth formers are in independent schools."

I am not sure how many sixth formers are in state grammars but if we add those on that is a lot of those who get places at good universities so I don't think there is over representation of private school pupils. About 70% of those at Oxbridge for example are from state schools so if 20% are in private schools at sixth form level I don't think it is very much out of kilter.

I’m not undermining anyone. I know Oxbridge don’t make contextualised offers. So that was a bad example. Other unis do though and this is not a bad thing.

I was specifically responding to the poster who seemed to be saying that a disadvantaged child should be classed as ‘privileged’ if they win a bursary at 11+ or 16+.

At a school one of mine went to, the odds of a fee-paying place following exams and interviews at 11+ was about one in ten. God knows what the odds were of a bursary place was, but I assume significantly tougher. So those children have done exceptionally well to get into those schools and I don’t think it should be held against them at the point of uni entry. Just as if someone gets into Oxford or wherever, you would hope that their achievement and all the hard work it surely involved, wouldn’t then disadvantage them at a later date.

But I still have not seen a single example of what you are talking about. I don't know anyone who has been disadvantaged for coming from a grammar/private school against another candidate. I don't deny this may exist, but I really would like some data to back this up.

I know universities quite well (obvs not all of them) and I cannot recognise any of this disadvantage, esp. not against grammar school kids

The only caution I'd throw in here (if just looking at raw figures of private school educated pupils going to university) is that many of these schools will be selective - i.e. there would be an exam/interviewing process to get into the school in the first place.

So it won't necessarily be only a case of it being the private schooling itself, but also the fact that these kids were able to pass the entrance exam itself and were allowed to stay for the 6th form portion (i.e. they attained good enough GCSEs to stay at the school).

I'm not contesting that private school does confer massive advantages though. Just pointing out that it's not as simple as looking at raw percentages of private school admission vs state school admission at universities.

It’s not even as simple as state v independent anyway (or shouldn’t be). Some independent schools are Mickey Mouse set-ups. Money for old rope, frankly.

The issue is selective v non-selective schools. It’s not really surprising that the more selective a school is, there will inevitably be a higher representation from those schools at certain unis. It’s not about better teaching or facilities. It’s just self-selection.

So grammar school was a leveller unless you had misogynist parents.

Except my father had a similar problem with his schooling. He left aged 12 because his parents needed him to work. He never got the opportunity of grammar school.

Xenia the whole experience at private school adds to the private school advantage. It's not just the two years of advantage conferred by sixth form.

Although being in an environment that knows about the Oxbridge admissions system, how to prepare for interviews, how to write a personal statement etc is clearly a game-changer.

Just because you 'don't think' that private school children aren't advantaged in university admissions esp to 'top' universities doesn't mean that they're not.

The figures very clearly say that they are, which is the very reason that these initiatives were developed in the first place.

The funniest thing is those that spend loads on their kids education and their kids just end up doing average jobs

The education buys choices, if they end up doing average jobs they chose to do it rather than having to do it because that’s all that was available.

camaleon - there are some very economically deprived children at top independent schools. They don’t really give out full bursaries to middle-income families. My daughter had friends in Mayfair and equally, friends who lived at the top of tower blocks where they were terrified to use the lifts. There are all kinds of cultural and religious challenges too for many of her friends. The school goes into certain primaries (or secondaries re-16+ entry) and identifies children there that may have potential, but whose parents might never think of applying. They run Saturday classes throughout Year 5 for these children to get them up to speed with what they will encounter in the exam and interview. Once in the school, they are never denied trips or opportunities on the basis of ability to pay - there is a fund and everything is covered from uniform to international trips. But they still face poverty at home - the school can’t change that. My daughter’s friend lived in one of the most notorious towers blocks in this part of London. Her dad was long gone. Her brother was in prison apparently. Her mother barely coping and possible mental health problems. She got four A*, but not a single medicine offer in this cycle. This is not uncommon at all. She is now having to take a gap year. Things are very intense for her at home and she is displaying some odd behaviours more recently - ie taking herself to A&E all the time. She has wondered if she might have got offers if she had stayed at her original school which was ok academically, all girls and about 80% Muslim. Who knows really, but I feel bad for her and others in a similar position.

There is a significant difference between not wanting your dc's school to count against them when applying for universities and expecting them to end up in high paying jobs.

One of my dc currently wants to be a primary school teacher and the other thinks maybe a chef.
I'm not expecting either of them to be in the 1% because the odds are frankly against that.

I want them to have a happy school life, with lots of extra curricular opportunities and for them to reach their full potential.

I want them to be happy in their work and feel good about what they do. For them to have lots of options open to them.

but 25% in Edinburgh

The Edinburgh figure is misleading. Because Edinburgh has a number of nationally (and internationally) renowned schools, people travel from outwith the area to attend these schools. It is true, Edinburgh is a wealthier city, but it also attracts a far higher number of non local students. It is also the case that there are more independent schools there. It is far easier, if you can afford to, to gain a place in a private school there than it is in any other of the large cities.

@moch11

It’s not always correct to say, ‘ Every single person in x school is extremely privileged, mostly by virtue of having rich and supportive parents.’ Things are changing in terms of the way too independents select as well. Google Latymer Upper School as an example. 25% on bursaries, I think? There is a much wider range of ‘privilege’ in some London independents than your average leafy suburban comp who just wander in from the surrounding avenues.

@moch11 To get a bursary you need very supportive and often middle class parents. I know because my child got one (both me and my husband are academics. We just don’t make as much as most other parents in the school). It will be entirely fair to demand better grades from my privately educated child than from someone from a deprived area comprehensive.

If it opens up a previously biased playing field then it can only be a good thing. Time to blow open the old boys' network and embrace a more balanced demographic

Totally agree. Tough shit to those who thought they could buy a fast-track to success for their children over all the other children in the country.

Poverty is of course the elephant in the room. Why are some people poor while others become prosperous (I won't say rich or wealthy)? Why do so many children of immigrant parents succeed so well? Look at the media, easy example, how many white working class boys are represented, except on sports, notably football.

The people, black brown pink white or yellow, who get off their backsides, get stuck into driving their children's education, make sure the homework is completed on time, succeed, at 11 plus, or at university -- apparently disproportionately. The children of the Ugandan Asia diaspora forced out under Idi Amin have succeeded in the UK, quite triumphantly.

Newer immigrants are still working out the details, but I would put money on lots of their children out-performing my DC because they have risked everything to get here and get a chance of a better life. But I would exclude all the old folk and cousins who arrive on family reunification tickets to take advantage of better/free social/health provision, who can't or won't speak English and want to live in little Dhakar or similar. Immigration is a boon, good for society. Just not unlimited.

I can only talk about the private schools I know - and that is exactly what they are like

My children have attended selective schools and my eldest applied to study Medicine last year when competition for places has been extremely tough. In my view he has been very privileged in the sense that he had the benefit of a certain type of education as well as supportive teachers who were well-versed in the complex medical school application process. Medical schools generally have widening participation schemes and rightly so as there are many less privileged DC who have both the intelligence and vocation and will make excellent doctors. It is entirely fair to demand better grades from DC like my DS than someone from a deprived area comprehensive. He was lucky to have been successful last year but my views would have held even if it hadn't worked out for him.

I have heard associates whose DC have not been successful in getting Oxbridge places allude to the fact that they would have done had it been a few years back before the WP programmes really took off. I think it is supremely arrogant to assume that a top University place is a given right for a DC.There are swathes of super-bright DC who miss out on Oxbridge places every year. It has always been like that. Why can't people just accept that maybe their DC are brilliant but they are not the only ones.

BFrazzled - that’s really not true in the school DD was in which is a London stay School. As I said, the parents often don’t even apply for the bursaries. The school go into certain state schools and identify pupils and support them to apply. Many families are recent immigrants. My daughters friend got into the sixth form on a full bursary. She filled in the application form for her younger sibling to go for a bursary place at 11 plus (didn’t get one though). The mother’s English isn’t good enough to communicate with the school.