To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

I attended a Russell Group university in the early-mid 1990s and I remember a fellow applicant raising this at the open day. They were privately-educated and had evidently told by their parents and/or teachers that this was A Thing. I thought it was fucking pathetic and I still do. I attended a state school with buckets in the corridors to catch the rain coming through the roof and pretty much zero by way of extra-curricular activities because there was fuck-all money, plus the legacy of years of industrial action.

We both got in, she got a 2:2 and I got a 2:1

I used to work in university admissions.

YANBU.

Well, I do think there's something in this OP.

My DH and I thought about selling our house and moving to a small flat to send our 2 boys to private school on sports scholarships and bursaries. However, after much thought we decided that the assumptions made about them and expectations would not be what we want for them...

If they get good grades from a state school -"oh they worked hard, well done".

If they get good grades from private - "well, of course, their parents paid for that".

If they get to a good uni from state school - "well done for all the grafting"

If they get to a good uni from private - "boys club, always the same, everything handed to them..."

If in the future they decide not to be academic, from state that's acceptable, less so from private ...

If in the future they want to go into politics, senior leadership etc... Companies might be more inclined to take from state. If they did take from private it would be "oh always from private schools..."

The list goes on ....

I think if you are ultra rich (I'm talking royal, celeb, etc..) then private school.is worth it as there is expectation on you already, and you can be protected to some extent being around others in privileged positions. For normal people, I just think nowadays private education is more of a disadvantage.

I want my children to feel and be seen as working for where they have got, grafters, deserving.

If they went private, even if this was all true (ie. They worked bloody hard, grafted, deserved what they got) to many they would just be seen as privileged with everything handed to them on a plate.

One of my children does an elite sport (swimming) and I have already noticed that most of the elite sportspeople in his field are from private school. Even I am feeling "bloody hell it's not fair, of course they will be more likely to get to the Olympics if they went to millfield, had their own pool etc..." The people I most respect are the adam.peatys, who were successful despite everything. As much as I'd love DS to have the advantages that private schools bring (professional swim.coaching on top of being a regular club, access to excellent facilities, acces to great eduction etc. Etc...) I don't want him to be viewed as only making it because if that. I want him to be viewed as making it despite lack of that .... (I know which is better for self esteem and expectation too)

I think I'd be tempted to say 'oh, well if it feel like the school fees aren't going to prove worthwhile, you can always remove her/him from the private school (or not go for it in the first place)'.

I'd hope that would prompt them to reflect on why they're really sending their child to that school and that perhaps it's not only about exam grades.

If it really is only about grades, then sending a bright, happy child to a state school and paying for extra tuition will be a far better use of their money.

@Itsnotdeep

6% of school children are educated in private schools, but the top universities (excluding Oxbridge, which is much higher) have anything from 25-40% of pupils from private schools, and some courses (law eg) are much higher. I think the figures are getting worse not better for state educated children.

There is no way that universities are discriminating against private school children. There is no way that a B at a private school is the same as a B at a state school. Universities should be taking 94% of their entrants from state schools. And just because your parents are wealthy enough to pay for private school should not stop children from having an equal right to university based on their intelligence and potential rather than their parents' wealth.

I don’t think your figure is correct, it’s over 15% private for sixth form

Its, it's 20% private school however at sixth form level, not 6% so not really very out of line with 25% from privates at top universities once you also consider extra parental effort, money etc. It is reasonably fair still. I don't regret paying school fees and of course private school children who don't work hard and/or are not that bright don't get into the good places. Loads of private schools cater for the lazy and intellectual challenged.

@kitkatsky

YANBU but this isn't a new thing. I went to Exeter nearly 20 years ago- they were known for being the 4th highest private school entry back then, behind Oxbridge and Bristol. I was often told by my privately educated peers that I'd probably only been accepted because of my comprehensive school education and deprived postcode. Never mind the fact I had better A Levels and eventually a degree to them. Privileged people usually need a reason to feel they're equal to everyone else so they can tell themselves their hard work alone got them to where they are

I was also told that I was there because of my deprived background by fellow (private school ) students at my university and also apparently my foreign name was another reason. I was basically fulfilling their quotas. Never mind that I had 3 As.

That was 30 years ago. My dds at Russell Group universities doing medicine and history are very much in the minority as ex state school pupils.

[quote RedMarauder]@MandyMotherOfBrian it's very common.

Some state schools do a lottery to select all their pupils. Others deliberately include a deprived area as part of their local catchment distance so you live in that postcode you are counted as living as near the school. The latter can still be gamed.[/quote]
Indeed. And also common, particularly in grammar school areas, ‘comprehensive’ Academy schools employ a system of ‘banding assessments’. They go to great pains to insist these are not entrance exams (whilst also stating in their admissions criteria that if you don’t sit them you’re unlikely to get a place ). They will take (eg) 33% from the top, middle and lower band, and banding comes higher than location on the criteria. Thus, they get some academically bright pupils who didn’t quite get in to the grammar school, they only have to take a third of the very lowest academically achieving, and those who miss out on the, inevitably most oversubscribed middle banding, have to bussed out of area even if they are five minutes walk away from their ‘local comp’. All the while the Head Teachers of said academies spend inordinate amounts of time and effort denigrating selective education . Not hyperbole btw, I actually have two local schools and heads in mind as I say this…….. This exercises me more than the privilege PE private education conveys tbh.

...oh, and for the avoidance of any doubt, I did not get any special treatment because of my background, there was no such thing, at least back then. I was made a condtional offer based on my Scottish Highers - I think I needed BBC in my Certificate of Sixth Year Studies and I got AAA.

Most kids applications are on an even basis anyway, it's only contextual offers (a small proportion) which are likely to be state - and we are talking failing state, very deprived neighbourhoods, disability/home circumstances or similar. My dd has a contextual offer (school is classified as failing) and post code is technically in bottom 10% on some index (that's a bit naughty though as we are actually in a nice area, just next to a bad one and the postcodes are just a bit out)

@Itsnotdeep I see you hadn't read the full thread as it would have told you why your post is inaccurate in a number of ways.

It’s no different to those who move to get into a particular catchment or tutor to get their child into a grammar. Parents do what they can to help their child access the best education. The only thing that differs is how they go about it, but access to money is always the limiting factor be it spent on a more expensive house, tutors or school fees.

Personally I don't think it is exactly the same.
Private schools themselves are not necessarily a problem it's the dominance of private schools in certain industries.

Sorry some of the loathing of children just because they go to a private school on here is pathetic.

I have one in state and one in private - for different reasons and it suits each one for what they are.

"I would take a state school educated over a private school educated child in a heart beat" - really how about looking at the individual rather than relaying your inherent hatred of something which at the end of the day they had no control over.

My state school child will get better grades than my private school child - because they are more intelligent. Private child will do better than they would have in a state school - smaller classes, more focus etc.

I was not educated in this country and the hatred of the private sector in this country is beyond my comprehension. We all want the best for our kids - different mechanisms.

At the end of the day I want my doctor to make the grade and not have an excuse that they did not go to the right school and were thus disadvantaged and that is why they screwed up my diagnosis.

OP, is there a big state secondary with real deprivation in its catchment and challenging reputation? Why not say 'well, if you really want to game the system, why not see if you can get them into X school?'

That ought to prompt them to recognise that the game isn't worth the candle and that they're really choosing a school as much for social and wellbeing reasons and an all-round education, as a chance to 'score' with the university entrance system.

@BungleandGeorge
Surely the figures you have quoted are the school fees rather than the amount actually spent on the child?

You're probably right, but then I expect the same also applies to the state school figure? IE, the state school figure is just a crude calculation of Total Education Expenditure by the UK government divided by Total UK state pupils.
If so the comparison would still stand, at least more or less.
Happy to be corrected if wrong.

@Caplin

I took my kids out of private primary (our local primary was one of the worst in the city), but to the horror of other parents I'm taking them out to go to our very decent (mid table) state secondary. I never really wnated to get stuck in tehprivate school bubble.

But I learned that lots of private school parents in Scotland take their kids out on S6 and put them into state secondary as they are more likely to get a spot in a decent uni! In Scotland most exams are done and dusted in S5 so can be a bit of a doss year for bright kids.

Talk about gaming the system!

Oh wow that is sneaky.

I have seen universities which have advertised the entry requirements however also state that they will consider slightly lower grades at higher level (scottish qualifications) for pupils from poorly performing state schools. Is this perhaps what they are referring to, that no such allowances will be made for private pupils and thus they will need the standard entry requirements with no allowances made? I'm not saying it's the same thing but perhaps that's what their opinions are being influenced by?

@Caplin I'm Scottish and have also never heard of that happening. Also I wouldn't really say the 6th year is a doss - yes you can get the grades for entry into your chosen course in 5th year, however universities will want to see evidence of engagement with study in 6th year, and subsequent good grades. It's not enough to just doss around in 6th year and scrape by. These graded will be noted on your application so they need to be of a good standard. You cant get 5 A's at higher in 5th year then does around in 6th and scrape 2 C's because you've dossed around - this would count against you for entry. 6th year students will often do advanced highers (which are slightly more challenging than A level) and some competitive courses do expect at least 1 or 2 advanced highers from a pupil.

@Fairyliz

Well I don’t know, isn’t the whole point of sending your children to private school is to get them into a better university and then a better job? It’s like me paying for super fast broadband, I would complain if I then only got bog standard broadband the same as everyone else.

Talk about saying the quite part out loud!

I was not educated in this country and the hatred of the private sector in this country is beyond my comprehension.

As a European I can't think of many countries where private schools have dominance like the UK & similar funding structures.

@gogohm

Most kids applications are on an even basis anyway, it's only contextual offers (a small proportion) which are likely to be state - and we are talking failing state, very deprived neighbourhoods, disability/home circumstances or similar. My dd has a contextual offer (school is classified as failing) and post code is technically in bottom 10% on some index (that's a bit naughty though as we are actually in a nice area, just next to a bad one and the postcodes are just a bit out)

This is a big issue in one particular state secondary school near me.

The main school is fairly diverse in intake - London, admit on distance, mixed socioeconomic local area, above national average for FSM and ESL.

The sixth form is full of privately educated children whose parents have moved them to this school as it's very good and know that an application from there will come with 'contextual offer' weighting ie their child's offer will be lower than if they had continued in a private school.

My friend's daughter who went through the whole of the main school there was advised that the sixth form might not suit her as 'it's very privileged'.

@moch11

It’s not always correct to say, ‘ Every single person in x school is extremely privileged, mostly by virtue of having rich and supportive parents.’ Things are changing in terms of the way too independents select as well. Google Latymer Upper School as an example. 25% on bursaries, I think? There is a much wider range of ‘privilege’ in some London independents than your average leafy suburban comp who just wander in from the surrounding avenues.

How many places are available at private schools for LAC pupils?

What chance does a 16 year old living independently have of making it into a VI form at a private school?

And yes there are 16 year olds living in bedsits and flats whilst trying to attend VI form, and guess where their friends hang out at the weekend?

[quote Porcupineintherough]@HarrietsChariot that doesnt sound fair at all, it sounds like entrenching privelige. The education children receive is in no way equal, neither are their circumstances, so why should only grades count?[/quote]
It is entrenching privilege. The entire point of weighting results from state schools was to create some parity. My sympathy bank is exhausted long before it reaches people whining about their privilege being reduced.

Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about...I volunteered at open days and met many angry parents who felt that Oxford was discriminating against their privately educated kids. The parents had the impression that Oxford were taking on less talented students for diversity box ticking purposes. The reality is that the standards to get into Oxford are the same across the board - for law, ALL students no matter their background need to achieve at least 3 As. What this means is that when faced with the choice between a student who went to Eton and got 3As or a student from a crap school who got the same, Oxford are more likely to give the offer to the kid from the rougher background. But they are just as deserving as the Eton student, as they will have achieved the minimum entry requirements.

It used to be that Oxford applications were dominated by privately educated students, but in recent years there has been a real push in outreach to get state educated students to apply. The result has been that mediocre private school applicants who a few years ago were almost guaranteed a shot at interview are now being set aside in favour of more talented state students. The competition has got much fiercer but the number of places has remained static.

@bogoffmda

Sorry some of the loathing of children just because they go to a private school on here is pathetic.

I have one in state and one in private - for different reasons and it suits each one for what they are.

"I would take a state school educated over a private school educated child in a heart beat" - really how about looking at the individual rather than relaying your inherent hatred of something which at the end of the day they had no control over.

My state school child will get better grades than my private school child - because they are more intelligent. Private child will do better than they would have in a state school - smaller classes, more focus etc.

I was not educated in this country and the hatred of the private sector in this country is beyond my comprehension. We all want the best for our kids - different mechanisms.

At the end of the day I want my doctor to make the grade and not have an excuse that they did not go to the right school and were thus disadvantaged and that is why they screwed up my diagnosis.

Nobody loathes children from private schools. We may dislike a system that is designed in a way that privately educated children are expected to take certain places and those in state education not. And when they make it, is becasue they were 'helped' unfairly.

As this thread and many comments out there demonstrate, it seems that many parents using the private system are totally convinced they are disadvantaged in accessing places where they are clearly not.

@bogoffmda It is actually incredible you believe this shit of less qualified people making it through the system just because they did not pay their way through it.