To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

@Macncheeseballs

Ancient gran, so basically you got to mix with people posher than you, according to that list? Surely the mixing has to go both ways

Well they got to mix with me and my friend whose mum worked in the local factory and the immigrant Muslim girl and the American girl etc. I couldn't mix with them without them mixing with me and of course mixing with each other. They lived in posh areas, I lived in a poor area, instead of us all being in our own little ghettos we mixed with each other. Might be different if your local school has a wide catchment area, where I lived it wasn't like that.

One question i find interesting to ask is whether people think that a child from a very deprived area who was offered a 100% (or near enough) scholarship to Eton or similar should have his A grades count for less than those of an affluent middle class child whose parents sent him or her to the local comp when applying to universities?

I think there's a perception that all private schools are attended only by the very affluent or striving middle class and I always wonder about the very bright but poorer children on scholarships who are conveniently ignored by both sides.

Another question is whether you make any allowances for the fact that private schools are often self-selecting at secondary school level already, seeking to cream off the brightest to enhance their own grade reporting as a school. Given that, would everyone agree that the split at university is never going to simply be a straightforward reflection of the number of children in the country who go to private school and those who don't (e.g. 7% private school children at Oxbridge only) and are you happy with that?

@ChairLegs

One question i find interesting to ask is whether people think that a child from a very deprived area who was offered a 100% (or near enough) scholarship to Eton or similar should have his A grades count for less than those of an affluent middle class child whose parents sent him or her to the local comp when applying to universities?

I think there's a perception that all private schools are attended only by the very affluent or striving middle class and I always wonder about the very bright but poorer children on scholarships who are conveniently ignored by both sides.

Another question is whether you make any allowances for the fact that private schools are often self-selecting at secondary school level already, seeking to cream off the brightest to enhance their own grade reporting as a school. Given that, would everyone agree that the split at university is never going to simply be a straightforward reflection of the number of children in the country who go to private school and those who don't (e.g. 7% private school children at Oxbridge only) and are you happy with that?

I think the deprived kid on a scholarship to Eton should be treated in the same way as the state educated middle class kids, and that is what happens at present.

I don't think that the deprived kid on a scholarship to Eton should be treated in the same way as the deprived kids at a sink school who have had no support or advantages. That's where I would draw the line.

I don't think it's about identifying what people are 'happy with', but more about what can be done to improve the current situation of privately educated being over-represented at 'top' universities.

Contextual offers are a step in the right direction. A small step in the great scheme of things, but still worth making.

It’s not only 7% of children who attend independent schools. By 6th firm it’s 18% nationally.

Here is the difference. Of the many thousands of state schools up and down the U.K., only 163 are academically selective (ie grammars). Even within grammars, some of these are in areas such as Lincolnshire and so not particularly selective as the population pressure is relatively low compared to more urban areas. For instance, the chance of getting in to a grammar in the Wirral might be 40%, whereas somewhere like Tiffin Girls in Kingston it might be about 5% as thousands sit the entrance exams every year.

Of course there are state schools that select by faith, but I’m purely talking about academic selection processes here.

I don’t know how many independent schools there are in the U.K.. They will vary massively from the big name boarding schools with rolling grounds and all sorts; to small preps and schools crammed into Victorian houses in city centres.

But what you can say about independent secondary schools is that, unlike comprehensives, they will invariably be academically selective to some extent. For some in rural areas the odds of a place may be 50% or so. But in the case of the London Day Schools, for instance, there may be 1500 siting 11 plus for 100 places. These schools are super-selective and there are a lot of them. I’m not sure people realise that it’s harder to get into some of these schools (relatively speaking) than it is to get into Oxbridge!

So forget the ‘private tag’ for a moment and the assumed privilege that goes with it. Instead, it’s obvious that the more selective a school is - regardless of the sector - the more A* it will produce and the more top uni applicants it will field. This is hardly rocket science.

It’s to do with the aptitude of the students - not so much the teaching. Of course there still be bright children in every school everywhere. But people with an IQ over say, 135 are in the top 2% nationally. So in an average, non-selective school, that’s what you would expect to find. But a school like St Paul’s Girls, they will all have IQs of 135+ because this is precisely what the entrance exams filter out. You can’t buy IQ - nor can you buy a place at these schools. They don’t care who you are or what you do. They want the brightest kids and they can cherry pick them and that’s how they get nearly a full house of A* grades year on year on year.

So it stands to reason, that even though only 18% of sixth formers are in independent schools, selective schools will always punch above their weight in terms of uni applications - because selective independents (and grammars) only take that type of student in the first place!

At the moment, about 75% of Oxbridge applicants are from the state sector. True, many of these will be from grammar schools. But 18% of independent applicants achieving 25% of places is probably what you would expect, based on selectivity at 11 plus or 16 plus.

But wherever you apply from, your grades are contextualised in the context of YOUR school.

@exaltedwombat

At some point in everyone's life Affirmative Action has to stop. The system will have done its best (or its worst), it's time to deliver the result. The point where what matters is your actual level of attainment, not how you got there. I don't think the education system is prepared to admit this, so the point will continue to come when applying for your first job.

It's not that uncommon for organisations to employ affirmative action as part of their recruitment practices.

So you want to get rid of private schools? How laughable. Schools are over crowded as it is and you want to introduce the thousands of private school children into an already overwhelmed state schools. Well, thst makes sense doesn’t it.

Your stats don't make sense.

18% of children being educated privately by sixth form in the UK does not equate to to 18% of university applicants in a given year being from UK private schools, given international, mature and deferred students.

And, given that St Paul's Girls is an independent school, you absolutely can and most likely will buy a place there.

That was to sol5

It's not as simple as "of course private schools will do better because they're selective".

If you look at the distribution of A star / A grades achieved by state and private pupils and compare it with the distribution of Oxbridge places there is still an issue.

How ridiculous did you not understand what @sol5 said? You can’t buy a place there anymore than you can buy a place at Oxford. It is extremely hard to get into the top London day schools. My children worked nonstop for a year coming up to their 11+ as they knew what school they wanted to go to and they wanted to get in. In their classes they are all working 18mths-2years ahead of the National Curriculum. I know incredibly moneyed people who live very close to the school in question who really wanted their children to get in and they didn’t. We live quite far away - the area is expensive and I choose to spend my money on education rather than a fancy house in that area. Private schools vary a lot. Some are rural and will take anyone willing to pay. London day schools are extremely selective. Make what you will of what this means when those children from those schools apply to university.

That was to @christinarossetti19!

What is the percentage of private school pupils selected for 2021 entrance at Oxbridge? Do any of us actually know?

@Empressofthemundane

What is the percentage of private school pupils selected for 2021 entrance at Oxbridge? Do any of us actually know?

It's too early to have that data. The deadline for submission of this data to HESA is November.

“And, given that St Paul's Girls is an independent school, you absolutely can and most likely will buy a place there.“

There is NO way you can buy a place at St Paul’s. 1000 girls sit the 11 plus every January. The first round is a computerised IQ test. From this, they invite roughly 500 11 year olds to sit a full day of exams. There is a 90 minute maths paper., an English comprehension paper, a short story on a given topic they write in 30 mins and another paper that tests extended reasoning and could be based on a science or history theme or pretty much anything. There is also some kind of group activity in the day where they are observed.

From this 200 of the 500 are invited for interview. The interview consists of showing them a picture, or an object or perhaps a map and asking them to respond to it. They also ask them to read a passage and they are questioned in it and there’s a bit about what their particular interests are.

After this 100 places will be offered. Plus about 5 girls in the waiting list.

This type of process is just as rigorous for a ten / eleven year old as an Oxbridge application is for a seventeen year old.

Best in mind, that most of these children will be going through all this 5 or 6 times over because they are doing similar selection processes for other schools. Off the top of my head, they might also be sitting for CLGS, Godolphin and Latymer, LEH, NLCS, Latymer Upper, Putney or Wimbledon High, Francis Holland to name but a few. This is a lot for a ten year old.

It’s beyond ridiculous to suggest you can pay your way in. People who say this kind of thing have absolutely no idea. They literally don’t give a damn if your parents are royalty. If your not in the top x %, you will not be admitted. Only a certain type of child would cope in that environment as clearly it’s not for everyone.

There may have been days of yore when you could buy your way into certain boarding schools on the back of family history and whatever malarkey went on rah rah rah there. But those days are long gone.

Oh and also, the 1000+ who sit for those 100 places at these schools in the first place will all have been in the top handful in their primaries. The primary school heads have to write references and give evidence of this. So it’s a selective group before they even walk through the doors to the exams.

@ChairLegs

One question i find interesting to ask is whether people think that a child from a very deprived area who was offered a 100% (or near enough) scholarship to Eton or similar should have his A grades count for less than those of an affluent middle class child whose parents sent him or her to the local comp when applying to universities?

I think there's a perception that all private schools are attended only by the very affluent or striving middle class and I always wonder about the very bright but poorer children on scholarships who are conveniently ignored by both sides.

Another question is whether you make any allowances for the fact that private schools are often self-selecting at secondary school level already, seeking to cream off the brightest to enhance their own grade reporting as a school. Given that, would everyone agree that the split at university is never going to simply be a straightforward reflection of the number of children in the country who go to private school and those who don't (e.g. 7% private school children at Oxbridge only) and are you happy with that?

It should be taken into account that their grades will have been higher as a result of attending Elton than if they had attended a state school. The inflated grades should of course be taken into account when offering a university place. A university place is not, however, offered solely on grades. Background should and is, rightly, taken into account.

@sol5

“And, given that St Paul's Girls is an independent school, you absolutely can and most likely will buy a place there.“

There is NO way you can buy a place at St Paul’s. 1000 girls sit the 11 plus every January. The first round is a computerised IQ test. From this, they invite roughly 500 11 year olds to sit a full day of exams. There is a 90 minute maths paper., an English comprehension paper, a short story on a given topic they write in 30 mins and another paper that tests extended reasoning and could be based on a science or history theme or pretty much anything. There is also some kind of group activity in the day where they are observed.

From this 200 of the 500 are invited for interview. The interview consists of showing them a picture, or an object or perhaps a map and asking them to respond to it. They also ask them to read a passage and they are questioned in it and there’s a bit about what their particular interests are.

After this 100 places will be offered. Plus about 5 girls in the waiting list.

This type of process is just as rigorous for a ten / eleven year old as an Oxbridge application is for a seventeen year old.

Best in mind, that most of these children will be going through all this 5 or 6 times over because they are doing similar selection processes for other schools. Off the top of my head, they might also be sitting for CLGS, Godolphin and Latymer, LEH, NLCS, Latymer Upper, Putney or Wimbledon High, Francis Holland to name but a few. This is a lot for a ten year old.

It’s beyond ridiculous to suggest you can pay your way in. People who say this kind of thing have absolutely no idea. They literally don’t give a damn if your parents are royalty. If your not in the top x %, you will not be admitted. Only a certain type of child would cope in that environment as clearly it’s not for everyone.

There may have been days of yore when you could buy your way into certain boarding schools on the back of family history and whatever malarkey went on rah rah rah there. But those days are long gone.

But it is bought, because those parents have paid for years of tutoring, coaching for interviews and/or private primary schools.

@threatmatrix

So you want to get rid of private schools? How laughable. Schools are over crowded as it is and you want to introduce the thousands of private school children into an already overwhelmed state schools. Well, thst makes sense doesn’t it.

I think the idea is to make them into state schools. Get more of a mix of children in.

@sol5

“And, given that St Paul's Girls is an independent school, you absolutely can and most likely will buy a place there.“

There is NO way you can buy a place at St Paul’s. 1000 girls sit the 11 plus every January. The first round is a computerised IQ test. From this, they invite roughly 500 11 year olds to sit a full day of exams. There is a 90 minute maths paper., an English comprehension paper, a short story on a given topic they write in 30 mins and another paper that tests extended reasoning and could be based on a science or history theme or pretty much anything. There is also some kind of group activity in the day where they are observed.

From this 200 of the 500 are invited for interview. The interview consists of showing them a picture, or an object or perhaps a map and asking them to respond to it. They also ask them to read a passage and they are questioned in it and there’s a bit about what their particular interests are.

After this 100 places will be offered. Plus about 5 girls in the waiting list.

This type of process is just as rigorous for a ten / eleven year old as an Oxbridge application is for a seventeen year old.

Best in mind, that most of these children will be going through all this 5 or 6 times over because they are doing similar selection processes for other schools. Off the top of my head, they might also be sitting for CLGS, Godolphin and Latymer, LEH, NLCS, Latymer Upper, Putney or Wimbledon High, Francis Holland to name but a few. This is a lot for a ten year old.

It’s beyond ridiculous to suggest you can pay your way in. People who say this kind of thing have absolutely no idea. They literally don’t give a damn if your parents are royalty. If your not in the top x %, you will not be admitted. Only a certain type of child would cope in that environment as clearly it’s not for everyone.

There may have been days of yore when you could buy your way into certain boarding schools on the back of family history and whatever malarkey went on rah rah rah there. But those days are long gone.

I said this up thread but was told that PPs knew this and had experience of the London day school system, they could just ‘see further than the end of their noses’ whatever that means. If that’s true then perhaps they can appreciate that these children at these highly selective schools have been driven and focussed since the age of 9 or 10. Of course that means nothing because God forbid their parents value their education and pastoral development over anything else in their lives and choose to pay money for it AS WELL AS paying high taxes to also support the state sector! But no, let’s ban all private schools (because we don’t live in a democracy do we) so the state sector can be properly overwhelmed and all our DC can suffer as a result. Btw for those who keep ranting about over privileged people from private schools running our country can we look at our Home Secretary? Love or hate her, she went to my alma mater, as far removed from Oxbridge as you can get. And no private schooling either, a comprehensive girls’ school!!

Also I never tutored my children to get in and if I had, so what?! Are you banning tutoring too? What about buying work books in WH Smith? Sitting with them and helping them work through them? Also banned? What if you’re in the state sector and going to a grammar for 11+ not trying for a private? Is it allowed then? Btw I hated the grammars we looked round. No soul no pastoral care and utterly focussed on results at the detriment of the child. I have never seen a private school like that. My friends’ DC at grammars all underachieved massively because they enjoyed at subjects like art, DT and PE which weren’t valued at all.

Are we all talking about St Paul's Girls in Hammersmith (I thought we were given that London Day Schools were mentioned).

It's a private school. You do literally have to pay to get a place there.

I don't disagree that entry is highly competitive, but it is contingent on parents being able to buy a place through fees.

I don't want to ban private schools. I think most of them are a waste of money tbh, but if people want to pay for them, then fair enough. I'd have paid for private education myself if I had thought it worth the investment.

I have absolutely no issue with my state educated dd competing with kids from private schools whatsoever, and I don't want or expect her to be treated any differently by universities. Why should she be? I don't think that she is at a disadvantage in any way.

What I do want is much greater investment in raising the aspirations and life chances of the most disadvantaged kids who get a really raw deal at the moment. As a society, we are utterly failing these kids at the moment and it isn't good enough.

@Mumof4DC

Also I never tutored my children to get in and if I had, so what?! Are you banning tutoring too? What about buying work books in WH Smith? Sitting with them and helping them work through them? Also banned? What if you’re in the state sector and going to a grammar for 11+ not trying for a private? Is it allowed then? Btw I hated the grammars we looked round. No soul no pastoral care and utterly focussed on results at the detriment of the child. I have never seen a private school like that. My friends’ DC at grammars all underachieved massively because they enjoyed at subjects like art, DT and PE which weren’t valued at all.

I went to grammar school, so did my husband, so did my 4 kids, so do my GC. Five different grammar schools, all sport mad and the sporty kids were valued over the academic kids probably because we had to pass the 11 plus but didn't have to pass a PE exam so not everyone (ME) could excel at sport.

So to come back the OP, no YANBU to rail against those aghast at having their privilege chipped away. And the responses on the thread show just that.