To scream, "Your Private School Children Are Not Being Discriminated Against at Uni"

[Triffid1]

Between work and social I seem to have a pretty diverse group of people who I engage with regularly but as my DC are at an age where we're thinking about high schools, there have been quite a few conversations around this recently. I have now had not one but THREE separate conversations with parents who are planning to send their children to private schools who have expressed concern that it might "disadvantage" them because the universities are prioritising state school children.

Clearly, every time someone says this, I immediately move them further down the pile of people I want to hang out with. But why is this so prevalent? Yesterday, talking with a client on Zoom, where he was ringing from his lovely home office in his leafy suburb of London I didn't actually know what to even say but I wanted to yell, "FFS, if there's a small shift so that the small number of private school children don't get the majority of places at the top universities, you'll have to live with it." Instead I simply changed the subject politely. Argh.

@masterblaster I understand that this is one of the reasons that many Medical Schools ignore the personal statements in the application process and focus more on selection by clinical entrance exams (more recently the UCAT which is pretty much innate ability rather than curriculum-based) and interviews to select the best candidates because they are better measures of intelligence and suitability and far less coachable. And for anyone who might feel inclined to suggest that this is dumbing down rather than attempting to level the playing field, I suggest you take a look at a UCAT past paper and I think you might be inclined to change your mind.

And for those who suggest that most people commenting don't have firs- hand experience of very selective schools, you are wrong. It is just that some of us choose to see further than the ends of our noses.

Once again, contextual offers do not discriminate against anyone.

@Toomuchtrouble4me and @Mumof4DC,

No, the best performing A level students are not deserving of limited Oxbridge places, students with the best potential to do well at Oxbridge should be awarded the places.

A good kid very well taught to 4A*s in the limited challenge of A levels are not necessarily either able to deal with a degree taught at a high level and a very high pace, or creative enough to add many ideas.

Universities should choose the students they believe will thrive there and go on to excellent degrees. And how they select these are their prerogative.

Stuart Maconie's book 'The Nanny State Made Me tackles this issue eloquently. There is strong and persuasive argument for abolishing all private and grammars and creating a level playing field for all children.

Of course there is @HarrietsweetHarriet, but it won't happen. As long as some people are smarter than others, there will be a way.

This suggests that all state comprehensives are equal and that there are no other ways that advantages are played out.
House prices near good state schools are already significantly higher, this would just get worse.
Tutoring would also just become an even bigger business.

In the UK I sent my dc to state schools but we could afford to live in an area with decent ones.

@masterblaster

Was one of the non private school kids at Cambridge. Now an admissions tutor myself.

I am not prejudiced against private schools, but I don’t read the personal statements. Schools that send a lot of students to our university write a slick letter for the student, some poor kid from South London at a school that Gavin Williams thinks needs 3 grades knocking off will not have an oxbridge tutor to polish up their letter.

That's horrible! Why would you discriminate against someone who went to a private school by not reading their personal statement ?! You don't know what someone's life is like. Geez. What next, you won't read a personal statement from a white male because they're more likely to be privileged?! Where does it end, honestly.

@Kiko18,

Why would you read a personal statement edited by the head of subject, then head of sixth form? What does it really tell you?

Universities have academic results and, most importantly (for Oxbridge, Imperial etc) interviews with the actual candidates.

Everyone knows that the personal statements count for very little and only come into play when two candidates are virtually equal in every other way.

@masterblaster, if you don’t read the personal statement, do you just go off of grades? Not all courses have an exam.

Or do you just reject them all?

@christinarossetti19

Once again, contextual offers do not discriminate against anyone.

Amen!

It might be more accurate to say that the discriminate between, rather than against?

But when child A from state school with lower grades gets a place at university over child B with higher grades from an independent school, it is discrimination.

It's not discrimination, it's a university looking for the best people, understanding that child A is a better candidate than child B because in the context of their educational opportunities their achievement is greater. Plus they have demonstrated the kind of determination and motivation that will help them to succeed at university.

I'm afraid that being moderately bright and privately educated is no longer enough. The great unwashed are being encouraged to think they deserve Oxbridge places too and - shock horror - some of them are cleverer than privately educated students, so Oxbridge are very happy to snap them up.

The assumption that private school teachers must be better teachers always baffles me. Teaching well behaved, motivated students with supportive parents is a breeze. Yes, the marking is intensive, but it's easy to stretch students.

I teach A level and a range of sets. But it's the bottom set where I really earn my money and have to use every trick of my experience. My A* and grade 9 kids will get there probably if I'm there or not. But that grade 3 or 4 will be fought for all the way.

worked really hard and someone who didn't work hard at all but was "lucky" enough to have parents who chose a sink school gets a place the hard worker with higher grades is excluded from.

This is quite something - describing someone at a sink school as luckier than someone privately educated. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself.

And if a privately educated student who works hard can't achieve two grades higher than a dosser at a sink school then it's not surprising that universities wouldn't be interested.

YANBU OP and quite right singingstones. The better grades from a private school don't necessarily reflect hard work or intelligence, but small class sizes, major additional resourcing and coaching. I work in RG HE Admissions and most in my Faculty openly acknowledge that private schools routinely inflate predicted grades, and that bright state educated young people may get lower grades but often have greater academic potential for independent learning at degree level than their privately-educated peers. It isn't discrimination, it's at last the start of erosion of the artificial advantage that has long discriminated against bright and able state-educated pupils. Posters noting the sour grapes of parents realizing they were buying advantage, not necessarily more academically able children, are spot on.This is about removing unfair advantage, however difficult that may be for those resisting positive change.

@Limejuiceandrum

If you spend all that money on education and then blame the said education on wether your kid goes to a top uni or not then I think you are a touch delusional about your perfect darlings.

This

No parent at an independent school will care if a child with equal grades from a state school gets a place over their child at university. We all know that’s a good thing

Many parents will care. Why is this 'a good thing'?

If two applicants have equal grades in my view there should be a ballot system.

@starlilly88

Generally I would agree but don't think all kids at private schools are wealthy and have lots of parental involvement. My sons school has a high number of kids on bursaries and scholarships as they want to give those bright kids a chance. It would be unfair penalise them for being given the opportunity. Also my son has an ASD and is in the school due to the dire local schools and pastoral support. Of course he benefits from all the things private schools offer but we made the financial sacrifice to put him there for his own good and he still struggles. It's not all black and white

Agree...there is a lot of stereotyping on this thread. Like you said, it's not all black and white. Children with bursaries, children with scholarships go to private schools too. They're not ALL born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Was one of the non private school kids at Cambridge. Now an admissions tutor myself

I am not prejudiced against private schools, but I don’t read the personal statements....some poor kid from South London at a school that Gavin Williams thinks needs 3 grades knocking off will not have an oxbridge tutor to polish up their letter

Blimey! So you are unashamedly saying that you disregard part of the application from private school students and are admitting you allow your political affiliations cloud your judgement.

So much for the 'contextual offers are not discrimination' mantra and theoretical impartiality

Nice

@notanothertakeaway

But I learned that lots of private school parents in Scotland take their kids out on S6 and put them into state secondary as they are more likely to get a spot in a decent uni!

@Caplin I live in Scotland, and have never heard of people doing this

I work in a state school in a city where 25% of dc attend private school and have never heard of this happening.

If it's a thing at all it's certainly not widespread

@pcl09

I am so sick of being vilified by people who don’t pay for private education. I do and I don’t feel guilty about it.

1. I had no intention of sending my children to an independent school until I visited the local school and it was appalling. I wouldn’t have spent a single day there and made a choice to make huge sacrifices to send my children elsewhere.
2. I am not rich by anyone’s measure. I have to scrape by every month for the “privilege” of paying for an education that I have already paid the state for in taxes but given they have used the money badly, I pay it twice. I’m not burdening the state to pay for their education and yet somehow I’m the bad guy? Pfft.
3. No parent at an independent school will care if a child with equal grades from a state school gets a place over their child at university. We all know that’s a good thing. But when child A from state school with lower grades gets a place at university over child B with higher grades from an independent school, it is discrimination. There’s no other way to dress it up. And child B is discriminated against because of a decision made by their parents… not the child. And you’ll never convince me that’s fair.

So you want equality??? Get the government to make state schools good enough so we don’t have to go elsewhere. Raise the standard of state schools. Stop accepting a sub standard education and then expecting the universities to compensate for it.

I’m interested to know what was appalling at the local school?

You were lucky to be in a position to be able to make “huge sacrifices “ to not have to go there. Many are not in that position, even if they work hard. Obviously some kids will have to go to the appalling school.

You made the choice to buy an advantage for your dc. We couldn’t make that choice as would not be able to afford it for all 3 of ours. However, we are lucky to have been able to choose to live in a nice area where the state schools, although very mixed ability, are generally pretty good. (Albeit our dcs most definitely mixed with people from all corners of society).

So, if a child from the “appalling “ school, against all odds managed to get high grades, despite possible disruption in classes, large class sizes etc, surely you can see that that would be a pretty monumental achievement. And surely you could argue that they should be given every chance, possibly to the detriment of someone with the same grades from a private school?

I find three things fascinating on this thread:

1. How little some posters trust universities to do their jobs (the very universities they simultaneously regard so highly, for the way they do their jobs).

2. The way that some posters seem to regard top university places as prizes for achievement at A-level. (Hint: A-levels and degrees are different things, taught in different ways, at which different people can excel. A-levels are but one indication of likely success at degree level, while simultaneously, many people find degrees much easier than A-levels).

3. The implicit sense, related to 2, that some posters feel their child who did well at school has a right to their chosen / a very good university place. As if that place has their name on it and is being cruelly taken away and 'given away' to someone else. As if there wasn't stiff competition for top places, with most applicants failing to secure their preferred place, as the norm.

Honestly, take it up with the universities. Ask them why they recruit the way they do, how well students from different educational backgrounds and with contextual offers perform. Who they'd like to see more applications from, why, what they're doing to promote that and what controls the flow of talent in their direction but lies frustratingly beyond their control. I imagine their responses might be quite eye-opening.

You are wrong!! My DD came out of private school into state at sixth form to do A Levels (Her choice) On applying to Uni she was offered BBB at 3 top Russel Group university's to study Law (AAA was what was needed otherwise) Her friend from Private School (Who stayed there) had to get AAA (no reduced grade offers) same course, same Uni's - explain that!

Maybe your dd has more nuanced analytical skills than her DM and could suggest some reasons herself Tigerstotty? Was she perhaps, an outstanding and desirable candidate?

Interesting point about personal statements.

Every parent I know 'helped' their DC with their statements - and as parents who could afford private school they tended to be generally well educated, professionals themselves, so were able to give good advice.

The school also would offer advice - but didn't write statements for the kids as some people seem to think.

However there are far worse examples than that:

One friend sent her daughter's PS to a former Oxbridge admissions tutor friend for advice (she rewrote it).
Another parent paid for a professionally written statement for her DS who was applying for medical school.

Any attempts to even up the playing field for students from less privileged backgrounds can only be a good thing.