I HATE paying Council Tax. It's the bill I hate the most.

[flashbac]

Council Tax is regressive and unfair.

It takes more money from lower income individuals.

It has no link to the actual value of a property.

In addition to linking council tax to value, the bands also need to increase in range in order to reflect the vast difference in property values.

How can it be right that a million pound property in Westminster is the same or (often lower) CT rate than a 2 up, 2 down house in Yorkshire?

Every local council now gets to keep some or all of their business rates now. In wealthy areas they get to keep a lower proportion

I’m not sure that’s how it works in London?

Either way, it’s not a straight into the council’s pot when raised locally.

I'd agree they want to change it but there isn't and easy answer on how to change it. May be it should be a straight forward price per m2. With different rates for flats, terrace, semi, detached. Or an additional rate for garden area

The problem is that it has been so long since it was changed, any change is going to be a shock.

It would be better if some services were not required to be funded from councils. Instead, central government should just fund directly and it’s delivered locally. Things that cost the most tend to happen more in deprived areas and it’s difficult to get that right in terms of council tax.

I would prefer that council tax was used for services which are more universal (roads, parks, waste collection etc) and central government funds things like children social services, adult social care (that covers disabled adults too - people tend to think it’s just about “old people”) etc.

@Belladonna12

The reason those regional discrepancies exist is because the councils in each area are required to fund services, that is divided by the houses across the bands in the area.

Yes that point seems to be completely lost on OP and many others on this thread. What do they think council tax actually is?

I think people understand that. But are questioning if there's a better/fairer system. But then I guess the discussion is should everything be centralised.

@CaptainMarvelous

My Band D property in a market town in the North West is just over £2000 a year.

In Kensington a Band D is £1313.

Council Tax is grossly unfair and regressive.

It's a lot more expensive, per capita, to deliver services in a rural area than in an urban one where all the people are packed in to a smaller area. For example, East Sussex has 14 fire stations, Croydon has 6, fewer than half, but East Sussex only has around 25% more people. There are rural primary schools that have so few children that they only have 2 teachers and a TA, but they are several miles from the next nearest school. And this is in the relatively heavily populated south east, it will be even more the case in somewhere like N Yorkshire or Cumbria.

This used to be reflected in the formula for central government grant to local councils, but I'd be surprised if that was still the case.

Central government is in the process of cutting its grant to local councils. Years ago, this was nearly 90%, I think it's now down to about 30%. Councils are having to make up the shortfall by putting up council tax, cutting services and increasing charges.

We're all paying more of the cost through council tax, but I haven't noticed any of the other taxes we pay going down because the government are paying less!

The thing that pisses me off the most is not that we pay the 4th highest council tax in the country, but that a lot of people in my road have massively extended the original 2-bed houses to the point where many now have 5 bedrooms (and a couple have annexes in the gardens as well) but their council tax band hasn't changed.

My full council tax bill is the same as that for a house along the road that has a family of 5 adults living in it, plus they rent out their garden annexe on Airbnb. They must make a far bigger demand on council services than I do as a single person, but I only get the 25% single person discount. Imo they should do a revaluation of properties.

At £128 a month, it's my biggest bill by miles.

[quote OhGiveUp]@Dreamstate No, it wasn't fairer as everyone in that household over the age of 18 had to pay it, and everyone in that household had to pay exactly the same, in their own name. Each person got an individual bill.
So, if you were a sahp for example with no income of your own, you had to still pay it, or be taken to court and possibly even jailed, so if you were lucky then your husband / partner would pay it, so he ended up paying twice.
The same with children living at home over the age of 18, if they were unemployed, remember in the 80s, unemployment was huge, they still had a percentage to pay.
The system was very unfair and very flawed.[/quote]
The one they wanted to introduce might have been but the premise is fair, every working adult should pay. They already do that a little bit by giving single people a discount right cos they aren't using the same level of services that 2 people plus do.

Say out of £100 Council tax £30 is for social care

Neighbour 1 - 2 people, get old and need social care and only paid £30 through council tax so thats £15 each for argument sake

Nieghbour 2 - single person taking discount into account and needs social care and pays £21 through council tax

So single person pays more than 2 people for needing the same service.

Its just wrong. If you stay single you end up paying more than a 3 person + household.

It annoys me more when you see the breakdown and see that police and fire receive fuck all compared to the council.

The money paid via council tax does not go directly to the council. It goes all into a central pot, and central government decide how much each council gets back

That’s business rates. Council tax is retained by local authorities.

@CecilyP

Scottish council tax is eye watering. We pay £4K plus.

You must live somewhere very nice. Mine is £1600 band C.

Bargain! Just under £2k for band C here in East Sussex.

I also think the differentials between bands could do with being bigger, tbh.

Band D is the datum, and (iirc) it goes up or down by 9% of that amount in each direction.

@BlueberrySugar

It annoys me more when you see the breakdown and see that police and fire receive fuck all compared to the council.

But when you think of all the staff needed to run the full range of council services (teachers, TAs, social workers, carers etc) they quite possibly have more staff than the equivalent police or fire service, plus loads more buildings and roads to maintain.

I hate having 3 levels of council: county, district and town/parish. I think it's massively wasteful - 3 finance depts, 3 HR depts etc.

And fuck knows what our town council does with it all. When I look at the budget summary, 90% of it goes on administration. They look after the cemetery and the town hall, and the town hall is mostly hired out for functions.

Unitary authorities are much more economical imo.

It’s also very unfair to lone parents. I get only a small single adult discount and it’s pretty annoying and unfair that my neighbours pay so much less per adult.

Notcontent CTax is based on a combination of a property element (50%) and two personal elements (25% x2). You get a 25% discount on the personal element, which your neighbours don't.

What should have been done in 1989 was to give a choice between Community Charge and domestic rates, after a revaluation had been done and the rate poundage had been increased. I bet people would have chosen Community Charge.

Community Charge was not that hard to collect ( it used to be my job), but properties don't move the same way people do, so it stopped. I far preferred Community Charge as it was fairer imo. People were paying their share, so 4 adults in a house contributed more than 1 person in terms of paying for the services they used.

The down side of the Community Charge / Poll tax is it didn't take account of ability to pay. Many houses with 4 adults really mean 2 adults and 2 students / trainees.
Why should an adult on £100k pay the same as an 18 year old apprentice?
The Poll tax was incredibly unpopular in Scotland where it was rolled out first, 30 years on there are still people who refuse to vote tory because of it.

Only for a short period of time are you likely to have 4 adults earning a decent wage in one house.

Something taking account of property size will take account of adults sharing or where you have 2 or more couples living together. 2 or more families in one property is likely to be a large house.

Imagine if, from tomorrow, the whole population was told they would all be paying the same amount of income tax. Let's put that figure at £1k a month. Doesn't matter if you're a CEO, or an apprentice chef. If you can't afford to pay it you face jail.

Does that really sound fair?

Because that was what the poll tax was about.

I lived through that period. I kept moving to evade it, but actually could have been imprisoned, all because I was on a low income.

@Spidey66

Imagine if, from tomorrow, the whole population was told they would all be paying the same amount of income tax. Let's put that figure at £1k a month. Doesn't matter if you're a CEO, or an apprentice chef. If you can't afford to pay it you face jail.

Does that really sound fair?

Because that was what the poll tax was about.

I lived through that period. I kept moving to evade it, but actually could have been imprisoned, all because I was on a low income.

Accounting for inflation the "poll tax" was around £48 pm in todays money for an employed person, unemployed, pensioners etc. only paid 20%, a much more significant reduction compared to Council Tax, so your £1,000 example is absurd.

House value in no way represents the ability to pay, nor does it reflect usage of council provided services. Does a system linked to house prices really sound fair?

In short, the reason council your tax is high, is not everyone who benefits from council services pays for them.

And it isn't going to change anytime soon!

Linking to house prices really isn't fair, people's circumstances change, people may have moved into a house as a couple, hit bereavement and used insurance money to cover the mortgage. But only get 25% discount on the council tax when actually they'd never have been able to afford the house alone. Maybe the discount for single people should be higher.

New builds are usually priced higher than existing houses. And it's difficult to value what a house would have been worth 30 years ago in an estate which didn't exist.

I definitely think some sort of rate per m2 makes more sense and less arguments.

@MatildaIThink
It wasn't. I remember it being about £70 per month, and that was in 1990 prices so probably about ? £130 a month in todays prices. This was in several London boroughs. OK my £1k was an exaggeration but was just to demonstrate the unfairness of it.

I definitely think some sort of rate per m2 makes more sense and less arguments

How would that help the people mentioned in your first paragraph?

PS my £1k figure was simply to compare it to income tax, not council tax.

I have not said it should be directly related to house price, though this is better IMO. I still think the fairest way is by a local income tax as a certain % of your income.

@Spidey66

PS my £1k figure was simply to compare it to income tax, not council tax.

I have not said it should be directly related to house price, though this is better IMO. I still think the fairest way is by a local income tax as a certain % of your income.

Some other countries do operate a local income tax, it is almost always capped though, so say 2-8%, but capped at a maximum of say £5k per year total payment. That of course also functions in a poll tax way in that two people living in a household on the same salary pay more than one person living in a household on the same salary. Those countries also tend to have lower standard income taxes, much in the same way the USA has federal, state and municipal taxes (although not all states have the latter two).

In reality it would make more sense for all of the statutory provision which councils have no choice over and which make up the majority of the costs being funded from central taxation. This would be things like social care, education, children's services etc. as the council has no real control over these, they can not choose not to provide them. Then council tax should be charged to equally (but at a reduced rate compared to current levels), with a two part per dwelling and per occupant component which goes towards spending in the council area which the council can choose to spend on based on the priorities of the local electorate, this would be things like frequency of refuse services, road maintenance, upkeep of public areas and the pet projects councils waste money on.

@Iggly and @MatildaIThink. Agree with you both about it being better to fund certain things out of general taxation and just leave Councils to deal with local things. Income tax up and council tax down, this would far better reflect people's actual ability to pay.

@Lockdownbear

How did they calculate rates back in the day?

It was based on what rent your property would attract. I think that it's still the basis on which water rates are calculated.

It galls me massively that we pay more than next door, simply because when we moved in the house was rebanded as it had been extended by the previous owners.
Next doors has been extended too, but won't be rebanded until they sell.
Doesn't seem fair.

@cptartapp

It galls me massively that we pay more than next door, simply because when we moved in the house was rebanded as it had been extended by the previous owners. Next doors has been extended too, but won't be rebanded until they sell. Doesn't seem fair.

Those have always been the rules for Council Tax, the re-band for an extension takes place upon sale. You could have bought a smaller house and then extended it yourself, if the few hundred to maybe a thousand pounds extra in Council Tax really would bother you that much.

I agree it would be better for councils to get money allocated for services they have to provide and for that to come from general taxation eg income tax which at least is not regressive.

Maybe it would also help avoid the situation where certain things are supposed to be provided by the public sector but in fact often are not because the council has run out of money?