New NI tax. How are people meant to afford this?

[OnTheBrink1]

We bought our house just before covid, got a mortgage that pushed us quite a bit but worked it all out and it’s been doable since then. We needed to push the mortgage quite a bit because we were upsizing to get an extra bedroom for the kids and a downstairs loo and in our area and from what we had before it was a jump.
Been managing since then but no progression opportunities in DH job during the last 18 months due to covid it seems as recruitment was largely paused.
However, now we will now have to pay an extra almost £900 per year on this new tax. £73 I make it.
We don’t have any benefits of any kind.
It’s going to be quite a struggle to afford the mortgage and still maintain the car (which is old but we need for work and kids stuff) plus all the usual bills and food. Kids are between 8-12 and need bus passes, constant uniform and all manner of expenses of course.
I mean we will struggle by but it’s going to be tough to afford that extra £73 a month when we had all the mortgage planned.
Just don’t get how they can bring it in so soon when it’s such an increase. How are others in a more difficult position going to afford this? People will be loosing their houses surely?

[quote portico]@MyPatronusIsACat

Pls read my early posts - that triggered your ire. I did not say for furlough to be repaid in one go. I used the sane analogy as graduates repaying student loans. Furloughs (80% of salary) are considerably mmuch more than income support/unemployment benefits. Now, I have no choice in paying my taxes. I find egregious that I will be paying for those who received furlough and that there are no means to clawback (over the long term) from furlough recipients.[/quote]
Seriously, WTAF are you going on about?

Why on EARTH should people pay back their furlough? As has been said, everyone who was furloughed had NO CHOICE in the matter, and they lost 20% of their salary, some for virtually a YEAR, and many struggled terribly with their basic living costs, and will be suffering financially for YEARS because of this. How the hell are they meant to pay back some £18K to £25K back? Even 'in instalments?'

And as I (and many others have said,) there is not a single reason WHY they should 'pay it back!' There is so much wrong with your suggestion, and yes it is 'triggering my IRE' because your dreadful and ill-informed suggestion is insulting!

The furlough money people had was their ONLY income. You go on like it was in addition to their salary! Your posts are so ill-informed that it wouldn't surprise me if you thought people were paid furlough in addition to their salary. I bet you think people in social housing get it for free too...

Do you ALSO suggest that when people go back to work after say 2-3 years of being unemployed and on benefits, or ten years as a single stay-at-home-mum on benefits, that they pay back all the benefits they claimed/received the whole time ? Because suggesting people pay back their furlough is exactly the same as suggesting people pay back ALL the benefits they received when they weren't working.

Your posts are making me furious, and I won't be engaging with you any further.

And you and @MatildaIThink can carry on with your jealousy and vitriol towards people who were furloughed, they will NEVER be told to pay it back. Mainly because it's ludicrous and insulting to suggest they should. As I said, it would be tantamount to asking everyone to pay back all the benefits they have ever received. Ludicrous, insulitng, and untenable.

@BasicDad

It's absolutely bonkers to even suggest those on furlough would pay it back though.

They were mandated by government to not work. It was not a choice. They owe nothing.

How in the world can you not see that? It was not a voluntary leave of absence!!

I don't agree with individuals having to pay it back.

However, some companies - notably those not providing key services - claimed furlough when they didn't need to. They've suffered no loss in profits. Those are the companies who should have to pay it back.

I think most people try to get the most they can afford if upsizing?
No, most don't. Many factor in an emergency fund that would take I to account many circumstances. Poor health being one of them. One person losing their job, having to reduce hours to care for a relative.

You seem to want a number of luxuries as part of your normal life but not deemed them so. Having a toilet downstairs, a room for each child are luxuries.

You can afford the extra tax, you just don't want to cut into any of the luxuries you now take for granted. That's the same for the vast majority of people. You are no different.

Interest rates are really low currently. It was a bit short sighted to buy a house which you can only just afford at current rates, what would you have done if interest rates went up?

@SquirryTheSquirrel
Hawkins001
To also help save, people can look at e.g. Sky packages, virgin, their costas, look at substituting different food brands, minimizing takeaway food, ect, all adds up in expenditure.

I tire of hearing this sort of thing.

Newsflash - many people can't afford those things now. Not everyone has a raft of small luxuries they can cut back on.

Many people do not pay for those things, but many people do. Statistically the lower your income level the more likely you are to smoke for example. Most of the high earners I know do not have Sky/Virgin, they do tend to have Netflix, but Netflix is £12 pcm vs Sky at £70+ pcm. Most of the lower earners I know all have Sky, plus sports packages etc. I do not know why that difference exists but it does.

When it comes to takeaways the evidence shows that these, as well as ready meals which cost more, are much more likely to be consumed by low earners. As well as branded food items which they perceive as "better".

There is a reason behind this, lower income people feel that they derive "status" from these items, where as in higher income groups expensive items, even cars to not increase status, which generally comes from being able to demonstrate property wealth, which is almost unfakeable (where as cars, household items etc. can all be leased, on credit etc.).

I know when things are tight it is difficult, when I was studying for my PhD and my husband was starting his own business at the same time things were incredibly tight, we even got rid of our TV license to save money and we both worked in a bar and restaurant in evenings, firstly for extra money and also because they often fed you on shift (although I know that might not be possible with small children).

Graduates now have a 42%+ tax burden once you include student loans.
My DD has worked damn hard for the last 10 years as a Teacher, she’s made it to HoD and is thanked now by a massive tax burden, she and her partner will pay an extra £100 monthly between them, they have a huge mortgage and nursery fees too. Yes they both earn decent money but 42% tax (in real terms)?

Older workers who can salary sacrifice up to £40k into a pension (down to minimum wage if they so choose) can avoid both income tax and NI 😡

People on £20k never going to be taking money out to pay for their care then?

Well they don't really need to, there's plenty of money to fund social care, it's just that it's hoarded by a select few.

The top 1% in the UK hold about 23% of the total wealth. If you want a monetary value on that it's between £3.3 and £3.6 Trillion depending on the figures you use. To put that into context it means 1% of the UK have enough wealth to completely wipe out the national debt and still have over £1,000,000,000,000 left.

Redistributing the wealth held be the elite should be the focus, not raising taxes for the masses. Taking 10% of the total wealth from the 1% would raise more money than the proposed NI increase will in 27 years. Take 50% and you could give social care £12billion a year until 2162!!

When it comes to SEISS everyone who I know who was eligible to claim it is net better off that previous years because of it, yes their earnings were down, but not as much as the payments for SEISS. With CJRS, especially at the start it was abused by companies, holidays were claimed through it when nothing to do with Covid, people given extra holidays through Covid, many small business owners gamed the system with their staff still working whilst claiming on CJRS etc.

Interestingly though my work I am now starting to see HMRC begin investigating companies and asking questions of directors/individuals who they think may have over claimed/fraudulently claimed (mostly JRS related). There is a large team working on this at HMRC and they have been given an additional £100m by the government specifically to tackle COVID fraud. Also, now there is greater collaboration between HMRC and Companies House red flags will be a little easier to spot.

[quote MyPatronusIsACat]@MatildaIThink

You are clearly another person who was not furloughed, and are woefully clueless about what being furloughed was like for many, and the fact that PEOPLE HAD NO CHOICE. FFS, you make it sound like people were on holiday for a year, being paid 80% of their salary and living it large.

Utterly clueless[/quote]
I was not furloughed, I worked full time through the pandemic. My husband was not furloughed or eligible for SEISS, but faced a drop in income of more than 70% over the whole year and for Apr20-Jul20 he earned nothing. I know many people who were, for most it was a holiday, indeed many were posting on social media about enjoying their paid holiday. Three of my closest friends husbands were furloughed last year, their entire houses were decorated, the gardens are now amazing and they did not have to take a pay cut.

You seem to think the majority took a 20% pay cut, most did not, you also seem to think that for most a 20% pay cut would be devastating , for higher earners it would not and for lower earners benefits kicked in. Also with so many costs reduced (no childcare, no eating out, no holidays, no commuting) even those facing a 20% cut will not have faced a full 20% cut in reality.

You can keep saying "Utterly clueless" to everyone who does not agree with you, but the reality is most people had a very different experience of furlough to what you had, or at least what you perceive happened.

@DucksFlyTogether

Food is more expensive
Utilities are more expensive
Petrol is more expensive.
I know my rent and council tax will go up in April like it always does.
Now an NI rise and tax rise the following year.

Same here. I'm really noticing it now. Second hike in gas and electricity due next month - about a 25% increase in monthly payments in a year. Will be doing an overhaul of voluntary expenses this month - as someone else said, charitable giving will be going, along with some treats. This isn't going to help small businesses like hairdressers, coffee shops etc as a lot of people will cut expenses that way.

I've already switched mobile supplier and got £5 off, changed TV subscriptions and got £12 off and am about to change broadband supplier for a £4 reduction. That just about covers the increase in gas and electricity. Considering going mostly veggie to reduce food bill.

@Bucanarab

People on £20k never going to be taking money out to pay for their care then?

Well they don't really need to, there's plenty of money to fund social care, it's just that it's hoarded by a select few.

The top 1% in the UK hold about 23% of the total wealth. If you want a monetary value on that it's between £3.3 and £3.6 Trillion depending on the figures you use. To put that into context it means 1% of the UK have enough wealth to completely wipe out the national debt and still have over £1,000,000,000,000 left.

Redistributing the wealth held be the elite should be the focus, not raising taxes for the masses. Taking 10% of the total wealth from the 1% would raise more money than the proposed NI increase will in 27 years. Take 50% and you could give social care £12billion a year until 2162!!

100% agree with you.

@zenthoughtsonlythanks

I fully expected shit like this..which is why I didn't vote blue in 2019

Well the alternative was Jeremy Corbyn, so more policies just like this one in fact! It seems we now have two labour parties to choose from...

Where in any of Labour manifesto did it suggest doing this?

Stop making shit up.

@StormzyinaTCup

When it comes to SEISS everyone who I know who was eligible to claim it is net better off that previous years because of it, yes their earnings were down, but not as much as the payments for SEISS. With CJRS, especially at the start it was abused by companies, holidays were claimed through it when nothing to do with Covid, people given extra holidays through Covid, many small business owners gamed the system with their staff still working whilst claiming on CJRS etc.

Interestingly though my work I am now starting to see HMRC begin investigating companies and asking questions of directors/individuals who they think may have over claimed/fraudulently claimed (mostly JRS related). There is a large team working on this at HMRC and they have been given an additional £100m by the government specifically to tackle COVID fraud. Also, now there is greater collaboration between HMRC and Companies House red flags will be a little easier to spot.

I really hope they do. I understand the reason for SEISS and CJRS, but the reality is it was also abused. So were the Bounceback Loans, a third have already been defaulted on, so many small Ltds took them out, withdrew the money and closed the company down, hoping that they would never be caught up with.

The latest estimates put the incorrect/fraudulent claims of SEISS at 20% for the early rounds, 50% for some of the later periods, that is a hell of a lot of money. The same with CJRS, some companies did not claim, some repaid, but there are many small businesses who completely gamed the system.

@MyPatronusIsACat

And you and @MatildaIThink can carry on with your jealousy and vitriol towards people who were furloughed, they will NEVER be told to pay it back. Mainly because it's ludicrous and insulting to suggest they should. As I said, it would be tantamount to asking everyone to pay back all the benefits they have ever received. Ludicrous, insulitng, and untenable.

You can carry on with your foaming at the mouth, there is no jealousy or vitriol. I have NEVER said that they should be told to pay it back, however it is obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together that we are all going to have to pay for it, that is the unfortunate consequences of the massive debt the country now has.

I'm going to come across as trite but we are high earners, we stay in a manageable mortgaged home, kids share a bedroom. I'm not getting caught up with the jones'.

My parents lost our house when I was a child in the 90s due to the recession and the impact on me was catastrophic at the time. We were on holiday and all they could do was watch tv to se how much the interest rates were going up.

All taxes can be hiked, im expecting an income tax one soon, mortgaging to the hilt is dangerous.

@MatildaIThink

Your bitterness and resentment is showing.

Your post at 12.48 proves my point brilliantly ... You are jealous and bitter of people who were furloughed because YOU had to work through the pandemic...

Bizarrely, like portico, you saw them as living their best life, and living it large, purely because a couple of people on your facebook showed pics of themselves doing a bit of home decorating. You assumed they were happy as pigs in shit, and rolling in money, because they hung a few rolls of wallpaper, and tended to their garden!

Are you actually serious?! I have never read so much rot! As I said, you are clueless. (Which was NOT the case for the vast, VAST majority of furloughed people.)

And I seriously doubt that they were showing off oodles of holiday snaps whilst on furlough. We were all in lockdown FFS.

If you're going to spout such tripe, at least make it credible FGS.

Like with @portico I am not engaging with you any further. Can't be arsed with engaging with with people spouting such ill-informed tripe.

@simitra- your quote
“Lots of boomer bashing as usual. Its not the boomers who were sitting on their asses at home getting 80% of their pay for doing sweet fanny adams! Someone has to pay for all that time that folks spend doing up their houses and gardens.”

Big sweeping generalisations about people on furlough too, no?some of those on furlough probably had many sleepless nights worrying over feeding their kids etc
As I recall the boomers have also made hay whilst sun shone and enjoyed buying their council houses, the best of the labour market and best of NHS services too.I’d happily take those things over covid, shite jobs market and long waiting lists on the NHS and no dentists around.
No one generation really gets off better

I’ve worked all the way through on frontline services.What I can tell you is we won’t see a drop of this money into those services, they’re already mentioning in the press this morning they’re going to employ nhs directors on big wages to deploy this money
I think people will happily pay for services if they are getting value for money and transparency which within the NHS is laughable.
The whole thing needs reforming from the top down.That’s what people want, they don’t want pharmaceutical companies charging £90 for paracetamol to the NHS and the NHS paying that.Everyone will put money into something fit for purpose and value.

Redistributing the wealth held be the elite should be the focus, not raising taxes for the masses
Until the next crisis, and then you hit them again? How many times should they be deemed sole saviours of the whole nation, to support a society need they will never use, before they have enough to be hold the fort for all, with little appreciation back, and decide to go somewhere else?

I do know someone who took out a bounce back loan, then made themselves bankrupt.
Not sure if they have to pay it back ? Wasn't a big business to start with etc. very small. They wound up the business.
I thought at the time was this ethical , but lockdown was an odd time and many were up against it . It was offered to them and they took it thinking it could work for them starting a new project , but it didn't work out.
It's going to take HMRC ages to trawl through all the various claims and so on but I'm sure a few will have to pay things back ?
How will that work ?

[quote MyPatronusIsACat]@MatildaIThink

Your bitterness and resentment is showing.

Your post at 12.48 proves my point brilliantly ... You are jealous and bitter of people who were furloughed because YOU had to work through the pandemic...

Bizarrely, like portico, you saw them as living their best life, and living it large, purely because a couple of people on your facebook showed pics of themselves doing a bit of home decorating. You assumed they were happy as pigs in shit, and rolling in money, because they hung a few rolls of wallpaper, and tended to their garden!

Are you actually serious?! I have never read so much rot! As I said, you are clueless. (Which was NOT the case for the vast, VAST majority of furloughed people.)

And I seriously doubt that they were showing off oodles of holiday snaps whilst on furlough. We were all in lockdown FFS.

If you're going to spout such tripe, at least make it credible FGS.

Like with @portico I am not engaging with you any further. Can't be arsed with engaging with with people spouting such ill-informed tripe.[/quote]
Again, you seem to think anyone who does not agree with you is "bitter", full of "resentment", "clueless" etc.

I did not "see them as living their best life, and living it large, purely because a couple of people posted on facebook", I know quite a few people who went on furlough, all are quite happy saying they enjoyed it and it meant last summer off on full pay. My husband also did loads in the garden, but was on zero pay, for everyone concerned it makes sense, it was time well spent, being productive, whether off of work entirely or on furlough.

No one was showing off "oodles of holiday snaps" because everyone I know was not stupid enough to go away, but again, you are deliberately misrepresenting what people have said to try and twist to your own misrepresentation.

There is someone on this thread not being credible as you seem to disagree with facts that do not fit your world view, and this post is a reply to them.

The pandemic has divided people hugely as it was so unfair on all sorts of levels. Many of us on this thread however can probably agree tax is too high.

I don't think confiscation of people's homes which is basically Labour's alternative policy (as you do not raise that much from taxing more the very very small number of very high earners) (Rachel Reeves R4 yesterday was really implying as much) is better given 40% of their homes goes to the state when they die anyway.

@MatildaIThink I don't think you are bitter. You did say you thought the system was too generous though.

How would you have rolled out an almost overnight blanket policy to protect as many people as possible?

given 40% of their homes goes to the state when they die anyway

Again untrue. A home owner’s estate is taxed only on anything above £500k. That’s £1 million for a couple which is why only only 5% of estates attract it.

@BlueFairiesinthesky

All the people who are questioning the budgeting skills of the OP. WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?! Housing is incredibly expensive for those who have bought recently, it’s crippling. I bet you’re sitting on a nice load of equity. Often their is no choice. Renting is more than a mortgage and not secure.

Yeah but no one needs to have multiple kids or a bigger house. Those are extras not necessities.

Surely when you get a mortgage you consider:

• current savings
• what If one of you is out of work? Made redundant? Gets ill?

Seems like on mumsnet a 100% of pregnancies or somehow a total surprise and accident and so are the following ones. And no one realised kids cost money...?

Morrisons expects price hikes amid supply chain and HGV driver crisis
mol.im/a/9972937

Just saw this on Facebook. We are definitely in for some belt tightening over the next year.