To be pissed off at paying more tax evdn though it is 1.25 percent?

[Fancymice]

So I get paid 1430 a month, then
-76.40 income tax
-75. 96 national insurance
-36.40 pension

And then this new 1.25 percent health and social care levy will be by my calculation 17.88

Total deductions 206.63 so take home will be £1223

I know it's only £17, but It just feels like the cherry on top of a year of being financially pummelled. The price of everything is going through the roof, food, petrol, rent. A pay rise is out of the question "because of covid" and now I have to part with even more money for our shitty useless government to misnanage.

@chipsandwine76

Right, so he risked being bankrupt if it all went wrong.

Agreed, without some employees he would have had nothing. But he risked paying them for their services. And if those employees weren't available another set would have been if he's paying the right amount - the employees were paid fairly (they can always leave - and often do).

The boss didn't take excessive gains - he took the profit or the loss as agreed by his investors - there is nothing excessive. Anyone who wanted to take part in this just had to use their wages to buy shares (and take the risk).

Well paid jobs for skilled and knowledgeable people are easily available. There is a huge demand for skilled people, and wages are rising 20-50% this year in some roles being recruited (there are huge shortages). At the moment labour has the upper hand, but definitely not if you have little to offer - but that's completely down to the individual.

Your argument fails when you say “there is nothing excessive.”

Bezos is worth $200bn. That is beyond excessive. It is obscene.

You disregard the inequity doled out at birth, where some people have parents who will invest $300,000 in their start-up business and some people have parents who work for minimum wage in businesses like Bezos’s and who cannot “just use their wages to buy shares.”

(You also seem to misunderstand the rules of bankruptcy. Bezos would be a pretty dim capitalist if he allowed the potential collapse of his company to cause his personal bankruptcy. The risk he ran was that his investors’ capital - his parents - would be lost).

@Blossomtoes

That's your interpretation - stop `attributing me to your own thoughts.

Yes, many people need to pay much more tax to cover themselves. At the moment most people don't pay their way - they need to bring much more value to the country, and pay much more tax. The issue isn't with those on 100k+, they are paying far more than their share. People didn't pay their fair share in the Victorian times - those who created wealth paid for everything, but maybe people also lived much more within their own means.

Thinking about your suggestion though, it was a pretty prosperous time. You might be on to something.

[quote chipsandwine76]@Iggly

Why don't you put your ideas into practice?

You could setup an online shop, and pay your staff more. Of course, you'd have to compete with others, so either you take less profit (which is fine as you suggest) or find people who will pay more for your services.

It's up to you - you can do this. And as you set the higher wage Jeff won't find any employees and he will also have to pay more.

And BTW, there is not a finite amount of money in a fiat system - but of course the current amount of money being controlled gives money its value.

Rich people make a country wealthy - they don't prevent others making more money. In general, we need to encourage billionaires to want to be in the UK - at present people like you make us all poorer by being hostile to them.[/quote]
You could set up an online shop

Google “ virtual monopolies” and “barriers to entry.”

[quote chipsandwine76]@Blossomtoes

That's your interpretation - stop `attributing me to your own thoughts.

Yes, many people need to pay much more tax to cover themselves. At the moment most people don't pay their way - they need to bring much more value to the country, and pay much more tax. The issue isn't with those on 100k+, they are paying far more than their share. People didn't pay their fair share in the Victorian times - those who created wealth paid for everything, but maybe people also lived much more within their own means.

Thinking about your suggestion though, it was a pretty prosperous time. You might be on to something.[/quote]
The Victorian era was far from a prosperous time for the vast majority.

Surely this @chipsandwine76 kid is joking right? Someone please tell me they're bantering.

... culture of exploiting people. He’s made huge profits during Amazon, delivery drivers and warehouse staff have worked throughout covid but I bet they still got shit wages

Hmm. I'm always a bit nonplussed when people go on about Amazon paying shit wages.

I mean they're obviously not mumsnet standard. But ime Amazon pay their warehouse staff very fairly.

Dh works for Amazon, in a warehouse. Packing, moving stock - basically a zero skill job that he walked into after a 3 minute interview.

He's paid roughly £800 net a week. Yes a week, not a month and yes net. They pay 2.2 hourly rate for overtime and throw bonuses at you if you work x hours of OT a week.

He does 60 hours for that - and it's hard work physically. But at over £3k take home a month, it's roughly the same as his previous 'professional' job, where he was salaried but had to do 60 hours a week to keep up with his work.

Only this is zero stress, zero worry, zero responsibility, no office corporate bullshit and he doesn't need to go to the gym anymore because he works out every day at work 😂

He joined as a temporary stop gap after redundancy until he got a 'proper job'. He stayed because it's a much better way of life that his previous management role and it's easy money.

There's really no need to feel sorry for the poor, lowly Amazon workers...many of them are earning well above the average wage for a piss easy job.

@StrangeToSee

Yes, the more you earn the more you pay. I do not understand why people think that high earners do not pay

But we do pay! Far far more than people on lower incomes. It feels so annoying when yet more hard earned money is taken in tax, and public services don’t seem to benefit!

I think this is the problem. We do all pay significant amounts of tax but, because the Tories spagfit on giving the likes of Dido Harding £37 billion, public services are still terrible and we end up having to pay more for private dentistry/ healthcare/ education etc. There are other countries where you pay more tax, but in those countries you would get free university education for example. We just keep paying to keep the rich wealthy.

When you look at how much the government wasted during the pandemic, all the money spent on PPE that wasn't fit for purpose & the multi million pound contracts given to mates of high ranking Tories & that is before the obscene amounts paid to people like Dido Harding, had all this money not been wasted we wouldn't have needed this NIC raise to prop up the NHS & Social care. The money they wasted is our money that has been paid by taxes & NIC that they treat like Jack in Jack & the beanstalk, using it to buy magic buttons that aren't magic.

I am lucky enough, & old enough to have paid off my mortgage. I feel no guilt at hopefully passing on my house to my children instead of it being used for care. Property prices are so far out of reach for the majority of youngsters, that without inheritance they will never own their own home and will be stuck in the expensive rent trap forever. Who pays for their rent when they retire & their meagre pensions don't cover it?
The whole system is broken

Yanbu. Did you see Amazon UK's pitiful contribution to tax in UK this year? Why don't the government tackle the REAL problems with how wealth is taxed in this country?

@ginislife

Makes me laugh. You're paying low taxes because it's a Tory govt. people moan about lack of social care and no cap on spend, lose your house etc. And when they increase ni to pay for a different scheme so it's capped still moaning. You'd be moaning even more under a Labour govt who would have hiked both tax and ni so you'd be far worse off.

I disagree with this- I think under a labour government it would more likely be means tested & a fairer system. Fact is the wealth gap is widening- a Tory government is bad news for low-middle incomes; great for high earners. I think there’s a lot of wishy washy info and generalised opinion In your posts’ language and its not accurate.. sorry! Social care is underfunded, everyone needs to pay more, including non working demographic & HNW should pay more.

@chipsandwine76 your opinion that all foreign aid should be stopped, and only very wealthy people should be allowed to move to the UK, is quite extraordinary. Do you not realise that
a) the primary purpose of foreign aid is not a charitable effort to help poor people in developing countries have a slightly better standard of living, it's to lessen the risk of catastrophic political instability and the attendant global threats. You may think it doesn't seem to be achieving this aim, but the whole world would be in a much worse state otherwise

b) do you imagine that all the non-UK born doctors, scientists, business owners, care staff, teachers, builders - I could go on ad infinitum but you get my gist - came here as well-off individuals?

@SoulfulSal

... culture of exploiting people. He’s made huge profits during Amazon, delivery drivers and warehouse staff have worked throughout covid but I bet they still got shit wages

Hmm. I'm always a bit nonplussed when people go on about Amazon paying shit wages.

I mean they're obviously not mumsnet standard. But ime Amazon pay their warehouse staff very fairly.

Dh works for Amazon, in a warehouse. Packing, moving stock - basically a zero skill job that he walked into after a 3 minute interview.

He's paid roughly £800 net a week. Yes a week, not a month and yes net. They pay 2.2 hourly rate for overtime and throw bonuses at you if you work x hours of OT a week.

He does 60 hours for that - and it's hard work physically. But at over £3k take home a month, it's roughly the same as his previous 'professional' job, where he was salaried but had to do 60 hours a week to keep up with his work.

Only this is zero stress, zero worry, zero responsibility, no office corporate bullshit and he doesn't need to go to the gym anymore because he works out every day at work 😂

He joined as a temporary stop gap after redundancy until he got a 'proper job'. He stayed because it's a much better way of life that his previous management role and it's easy money.

There's really no need to feel sorry for the poor, lowly Amazon workers...many of them are earning well above the average wage for a piss easy job.

I have a problem with the gap between the very wealthy ceo and those at the bottom 🤷🏻‍♀️

He has got rich off the back of those paid a lot less - why is it ok for so much wealth to accumulate to one person when he was not the only one who helped create that wealth?

Your DH is one employee - I’m not going to change my view based on one person.

Having billionaires skews the system too much.

[quote chipsandwine76]@Iggly

Why don't you put your ideas into practice?

You could setup an online shop, and pay your staff more. Of course, you'd have to compete with others, so either you take less profit (which is fine as you suggest) or find people who will pay more for your services.

It's up to you - you can do this. And as you set the higher wage Jeff won't find any employees and he will also have to pay more.

And BTW, there is not a finite amount of money in a fiat system - but of course the current amount of money being controlled gives money its value.

Rich people make a country wealthy - they don't prevent others making more money. In general, we need to encourage billionaires to want to be in the UK - at present people like you make us all poorer by being hostile to them.[/quote]
On paper, having billionaires may make a country wealthy but it does not give everyone a decent standard of living.

And those rich people did not get wealthy by themselves.

Finally, why should those obscenely rich people get to keep all of those gains? By keeping those gains - which is not worth the relative effort - it skews the economy.

The Victorian times were pretty dire for a huge swathe of the population.

Surely COVID would have made you realise why we need to make sure we have more equitable system…..

And in a fiat system - we do not have an infinite supply of money otherwise we’d end up down the road of hyper inflation.

I literally don’t understand how you think you have a logical argument. I’m guessing you don’t see people on low wages as human beings who need more than fresh air to survive.

As for me doing what Jeff did - if I had worked in an investment bank and has hundreds of thousands of dollars from friends and family then maybe I would.

He had great privileges and yet keeps so much gain for himself.

Without his friends and family, without the infrastructure created by the world economy, without all those employees, he’d just be a dude with an idea. He’s not special. Those at the top or with a lot of money very rarely are.

@nc8765

It's disgusting.

Another MNer said on a separate thread quite eloquently: "You're paying for the privilege of allowing others to pass on their wealth to their children".

Tories gonna Tory.

Anyway, this is what the will of the people looks like. Isn't democracy majestic.

@NotPersephone

The unpalatable truth is that there are not enough “rich people” to pay what is needed. And the top 1% of earners already pay more than a third of all income tax (and those are the Guardian’s figures btw). And about half of all workers don’t pay enough to even cover their own healthcare costs.

So yes I think YAB a bit U - although I agree it will likely be pissed into the wind by the NHS and get nowhere near the people it’s supposed to help.

Utter bollocks there are plenty of wealthy people. As for this stuff about how much income tax they pay, that’s just the ones who bother to pay or can’t dodge it because they work for the government etc. There are plenty more with income from huge wealth who are paying fuck all.

The idea that we serfs have to pay for everything is popular with the Sir Bufton Tuftons and (worse) all the cap doffing serfs but it’s not true, it’s just expedient for them.

Anyway, this is what the will of the people looks like. Isn't democracy majestic.
Our FPTP system means that most people who bothered to vote didn’t vote for this Tory shitshow.
You appear to be trying to conflate that with The Referendum. At least that was an actual majority, unlike the majority of general elections. We badly need electoral reform.

But the family with 2 working are likely doing so as unable to afford to have one as a SAHP, and paying childcare fees etc. If the family with one high earner feels disadvantaged then the SAHP could get a job and bring in an extra salary at low level tax rate

If they can’t afford to work because of childcare fees how will that help?

Yes, the more you earn the more you pay. I do not understand why people think that high earners do not pay

But we do pay! Far far more than people on lower incomes. It feels so annoying when yet more hard earned money is taken in tax, and public services don’t seem to benefit!

Some people on this thread probably pay more in a week in tax than I actually earn......

We need to become realistic that too many people who contribute little are expecting too much - the lower paid need to pay much more tax. People should get access to better services as they contribute more, not less.

Tell you what, let's just cut out the middle man here and send all the wages of the low paid to the government in tax so those who earn more and pay more don't feel aggrieved that I pay less tax, because clearly I'm only doing so for shits and giggles. I'm not sure how effective I'll be at my job caring for the elderly and frail family members of others when I've no where to live and wash, or am scrabbling in bins for my food, but hey, it's just realistic right?!
Maybe I can live in the shed at work? At least I'd be close I suppose 🤔

Foreign aid needs to be fully stopped and immigration completely rejected other than for very wealthy people entering the country. If people wish to sponsor people, they can fully pay for them.
Well with no immigration and care workers paying all their wages in tax because it's expecting too much to have enough to live on, who's going to do all these jobs? After all, all you high earners are off paying so much in tax working so hard.....

My dh pays about 20k in tax etc per year so I personally think that is enough!!

@Catatemyhomework

Should add, remember Tony Blair and his BTL empire? He must have pissed his pants when house prices went through the roof. It was all intentional and all governments have continued in this way. They don't care!

I've seen you quote this in other threads, is this the rewriting of the BTL narrative?

@longue

Well apparently we gained 24 more billionaires in the UK over the last yr. So by your logic we should be rolling in it now not facing tax hikes & pay freezes.

Not "We."

"They."

Bezos is worth $200bn...
You disregard the inequity doled out at birth, where some people have parents who will invest $300,000 in their start-up business...

He [Bezos] had great privileges...

His parents have inspiring stories of their own:

Jeff Bezos was born the son of a single teen mom who was so strapped she couldn’t afford a telephone, and he is now the richest person in the world...

Jacklyn Bezos was barely 17 and a junior in high school when she gave birth to Bezos in 1964, she said in her commencement speech. The school administrators initially told her she would not be allowed to finish high school.

“It didn’t make any sense to me, so I pushed back and I kept on pushing back. And eventually the school relented, they would allow me to come back to school but there would be conditions,” Jacklyn said.

Those rules were harsh and dehumanizing: “Condition one, I had to arrive and depart school within five minutes of the starting and finishing bells. Condition two, I could not talk to other students. Condition three, I couldn’t eat lunch in the cafeteria...

by the time Bezos was 17 months, Jacklyn sought out work as a secretary (she had been taking secretarial classes in the afternoons)...

Jacklyn enrolled in night school and picked her classes based on which professor would allow her to bring her infant to class with her...
www.cnbc.com/2019/06/14/jeff-bezoss-single-teen-mom-brought-him-to-night-school-with-her.html

Today, Mike Bezos is the father of the richest man in the world, Jeff Bezos. But in 1962 [aged 16] Mike Bezos came to America from Cuba wearing a jacket his mother had hand-stitched from cleaning rags. He was a teenager travelling by himself and he spoke almost no English...

Bezos’ father first stayed in Camp Matecumbe, a refugee camp in Florida, for three weeks. He was later sent to Wilmington, Delaware to attend high school, where he got a scholarship to go to college in Albuquerque...

www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/how-jeff-bezos-dad-who-came-from-cuba-alone-at-16-inspires-him.html