In wondering why UK can't adopt the Australian Healthcare system?

[chopc]

I was talking to some friends abroad and in Australia about frustrations with our wonderful
NHS for both patient and doctor. One of them wondered why we can't adopt the Australian Healthcare system. I thought the same and checked with those using it in Australia, and I can't see any downsides to it ........

What is stopping the UK adopting the same system?

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

www.news.com.au/best-of/money/how-much-does-an-ambulance-cost-in-australia/news-story/32a37d702e6e11361cc0ec129aed05d6%3famp

If this is accurate, it’s terrible for economically deprived residents

No it’s not, because it only costs the equivalent of about 4 pounds per month for a family to have ambulance cover, which is manageable for low income families. It’s just the same as national insurance, just collected in a different manner.

@nolongersurprised. I think people are much more likely to write complaints than praise. I also think that no matter how well people are served for most things, they'll complain about the one thing that went wrong.
Do I wish we could go back to the days when you could ring and get a next day appointment? Yes. Do I wish that every time I drove out of my town, there wasn't a new housing estate? Yes. But with a constantly increasing population like we have, this is what happens.

We have private doctors surgeries where you can get a same day appointment. So we can pay to get an appointment, just like you. We have walk in centres,where you can be seen the same day - fir free. We have emergency treatments, just like you. We have long waiting lists, just like you. We have free dental surgeries, which, again, I have used for root canal work over lockdown, and my family members have all had annual checkups. I'm not sure if you do get dental services.

Yes, the NHS is under massive strain because of covid which Australia, thankfully, hasn't experienced and its definitely delayed treatment. That's the biggest problem. But whenever anyone asks on here, when will GPS open?, the overwhelming response from other posters is, they're open and conducting business. They're doing routine checks, doing tests and referring people. They've been doing routine blood tests throughout lockdown at the same time as carrying out a massive vaccination programme. Other than that, things seem pretty ordinary here and the idea of phone appointments has worked well for many people and I think will carry on in some form.

I don't know anything about Gwen or where she's from, but my experience and experience of friends is not like hers. Simarly there are many on here who do not have a similar appreciation of the Australian system as you do.

And yes, my gp does same day emergency appointments that also operated through lockdown. I know because my sister went twice during the first lockdown last year.

@nolongersurprised

What are you talking about? We have a health care system

Not if the many MN posts talking about it taking weeks and weeks to have contact with a GP are. You don’t have a functioning health care system without primary care.

I mean, there are challenges to accessing health care in parts of Australia as well - people living in very remote areas are disadvantaged, with actual access to tertiary or emergency care problematic. They don’t have local specialisers and in emergencies need to be transported out by air.

However, as stated multiple times on this thread, for most of us, if we want to see a GP in a reasonable time frame we can. There some excellent GPs who may be harder to get into but someone will be available. My GP is very popular but if one of my children was unwell I could get one of her emergency appointments this afternoon.

I had been trying for months, going to the surgery because I could never get through on the phone

gwen couldn’t see a GP - MN has me believe that’s not that unusual with the NHS at the moment. Or is it just a tiny, but vocal percentage?

There is a difference between the NHS as it should be and the NHS as it is.

Despite what the Daily Mail tells you, GPs are working harder than ever (30% increase in activity, compared to pre-Covid). But people are struggling to get appointments because there aren't enough GPs. The population is growing, and ageing, but the number of whole-time equivalent GPs is falling: by 2000 in the last 2 years alone. Increasingly, young GPs are reluctant to take on permanent roles in a practice, because they see the workload and strain that their older colleagues experience. So the work falls on a smaller and smaller number of doctors, who then become the targets of the understandable frustrations of patients who can't get appointments.

No one goes into general practice to give patients a shit service, but there is a limit to what the remaining GPs can do. We're already working 60 hours weeks if we're full time and even 'part-time' GPs are typically working more than a normal 37.5h week. But we can't keep up with demand. It is so demoralising. Suicide rates amongst GPs - always higher than the general population - have now risen to 4 times the UK average. As soon as Covid permits, I'm expecting an exodus to Australia, where GPs earn well over $200,000, with far less of the hassle and moral injury of working in the NHS. I don't know how long those who remain can continue as we are. Primary care is collapsing. It's terrible for the people who work in it, and it's much worse for patients.

@NotBadConsidering

Yet, it seems lots of people do find themselves in debt because they requested the services of an ambulance.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/australias-shame-millions-of-dollars-in-unpaid-ambulance-bills/news-story/fc3ed486c238a3b7b07a52e28aa4b52f%3famp

I find this absolutely appalling.

I haven't experienced hospitals or chronic health conditions in Australia. But routine health care - GPs, blood tests etc is better. After being unable to access routine healthcare during 2020 in London, due to Covid, I went to my GP in Aus and walked out with a number of referrals - all of which were bulk billed. All my dealings with the system have been easy and I love that I can book a same day appointment and get seen promptly.

Because Labour and its supporters have screaming hysterics at any suggestion of reforming or amending the NHS in any way. If it worked in 1948 it's good enough for the 21st century is basically their view. It's not just the Tories who are a threat to the long-term future of the NHS.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow. Our surgery has 7 doctors and only 2 work full time. They struggle to cover Fridays because the GPS like a 3 day weekend. Basically if you have an energency on Thursday, you're not going to see anyone til Monday. So that's why people end up at walk-ins and A&E.

Australian employers don't offer to pay private health cover. We are very different from the US in this respect.
Yes it is a huge gap that dental is not covered. My state has free dental clinics visiting primary schools but this is not enough
DD has just embarked on a huge orthodontics process - braces and jaw surgery - and much of it is not covered by Medicare or indeed our private insurance.

[quote AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken]@NotBadConsidering

Yet, it seems lots of people do find themselves in debt because they requested the services of an ambulance.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/australias-shame-millions-of-dollars-in-unpaid-ambulance-bills/news-story/fc3ed486c238a3b7b07a52e28aa4b52f%3famp

I find this absolutely appalling.[/quote]
Yet in the UK, 9 out of 10 ambulance trips aren’t an emergency.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/29/paramedic-ambulance-service-call-triage

And time wasters cost the service millions each year:

www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/ambulance-call-outs-cost-millions-sore-throats-false-nails-a8299306.html%3famp

I think people are much more likely to write complaints than praise

So the people on MN who say they can’t access primary care actually can?

I’d rather wasted trips than poor people being too frightened to phone an ambulance for fear of getting into debt!

@nolongersurprised

I think people are much more likely to write complaints than praise

So the people on MN who say they can’t access primary care actually can?

Noooo. But the ones who can get an appointment don't really bother to go online and write positive things. However, people who have a negative experience are more likely to, so the debate becomes heavily one sided.

However, people who have a negative experience are more likely to, so the debate becomes heavily one sided

You see, the impression I get from here is that a reasonably large proportion can’t see their GP in a timely manner. If it’s a vocal 0.5% then presumably there are mitigating reasons (geographical, GP issues) but if it’s say, a quarter, then that’s a non functional primary care service.

Why should a new estate being built affect you? Can you not just choose a GP?

Why should a new estate being built affect you? Can you not just choose a GP?

Lol, yes I can choose another gp. But the increase in England's population is outstripping the increase in GPs and hospital services. And a large influx of new people into the area, puts even more pressure onto existing services. Not just medical and dental, but council services, retirement homes, parking, traffic, roads, etc.

[quote Haywirecity]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow. Our surgery has 7 doctors and only 2 work full time. They struggle to cover Fridays because the GPS like a 3 day weekend. Basically if you have an energency on Thursday, you're not going to see anyone til Monday. So that's why people end up at walk-ins and A&E.[/quote]
And?

Surgeries can't force GPs to work more hours than they are prepared to do. Do you think the partners sit around saying, 'I know, let's have a lot fewer doctors than we need, so we can carry on working 60 hour weeks and having shit lives?'

Do you not get that this isn't a choice? If we can't recruit more GPs, what are we supposed to do? No one wants to have a huge, unsafe workload. All you and people like you are doing is kicking the remaining GPs for the fact they're aren't enough of us. What do you want us to do? We can't force people to work for us.

It's a total sellers' market. Practices struggle to recruit at all. They're certainly not in a position to dictate that newer GPs they employ work 5 days a week (which is at least 60 hours). Part-time as a GP is typically around 35 hours a week, anyway.

@NotBadConsidering I believe @Justilou1
Not every state and territory has the same level of care. Even in their own capital cities.

I know of a similar case, and it’s not breaking news or even local news that the waiting list to see a paediatric cardiologist at a children’s hospital is 3 years.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow. I never suggested that GPs had to work full time. I was just pointing out that there at my surgery the majority of the gps don't work full time and that leads to shortages. If you have a surgery with 4 FT GPs that can cover the list and they all decide to go PT, it's going to need 8 GPs. Obviously across the country that's going to lead to mass shortage of GPs.

I think you need to chill. Where have I kicked or been disrespectful to gps? I've been directed by my surgery to a walk in on a Friday because in their words, they can't get doctors to work Fridays. Fortunately, we now have a few nurse practitioners that do quite a lot of the face to face work. They all seem to work Fridays.

I have worked 2 jobs, one as a teacher, the other I'm not prepared to say because it would be identifying. In both I worked well over my hours. As a college lecturer, I earned 16,000 for a 17.5 hr week. I usually ended up doing three 8-10 hour days which equates to a 50/ 60hr week. My other job, I worked even more for even lower pay. GPs are not alone in working long hours.

nolongersurprised

justlou do you live in an area with public cardiology services? Because 3 1/2 years is crazy, national news type waiting times.

@nolongersurprised The waiting time for paediatric cardiology in the Children’s hospital in my city, in my state is a three tier system of 1year, 2 years, 3 years. Years not months and no it’s not on the national news!

Another issue I have with our health system is the rampant bullying by health professionals towards one another and patients. The level of aggression towards someone who questions the health care or criticises it in any way is appalling. The things I’ve seen, the way some people are forced into silence and not being able to speak up about their experiences or what they have witnessed. Horrific.

justlou is sharing her own experience and you are shutting her down and inferring that she is lying or exaggerating.

@nolongersurprised
You see, the impression I get from here is that a reasonably large proportion can’t see their GP in a timely manner.

Thinking about it, this is a very good reason why people shouldn't get their information or news from social media. It can only be anecdotal at best.

The waiting time for paediatric cardiology in the Children’s hospital in my city, in my state is a three tier system of 1year, 2 years, 3 years. Years not months and no it’s not on the national news!

Well it should be! That’s outrageous. If that was the case at my local children’s hospital it would be, certainly state news. It’s so far below the national average they shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it.

The issue with the NHS is that the range and cost of the things they are (generally reasonably) expected to provide is immense.

It's a massive org- one of the largest employers in the world..! (In top 5 I think not checked recently).

Free at point of service is awesome.

If we want better then that means £££.

We pay less pp than other systems on the continent that are seen as better.

It's a really difficult issue. To move to a system like aus would involve a massive upheaval of all sorts of stuff. Everything I googled described their system funding as very complicated.

Which is manageable if it's grown organically over years but to implement here would be incredibly expensive and involved changes in loads of orgs etc.

I don't know what the answer is.

What I do know is that those that have healthcare systems seen as very good, it costs.

Oops I used inferring when I meant to use implying in my earlier post.

@NotBadConsidering maybe it should be on the news. Or maybe we need to look at why health care varies so much from state to state.

Is it your entire state though? Or even your entire children’s hospital? Because if your local children’s hospital as a whole was that dysfunctional then I’m sure it would be news. Maybe it’s just the cardiology department, can’t get enough paediatric cardiologists maybe.