To think women can't have it all?

[0Cripes]

I'm pregnant with DC3 and due soon. My boss recently announced he was leaving at the end of this month on a 9 month secondment. His role is a natural progression for me and he has been teeing me up for it for 7 years. However, someone will backfill his role and gain experience for 9 months that I won't have a chance to get, therefore when the permanent position comes up (my boss has no intention to return) I'll be at a disadvantage.
If I wasn't going on mat leave I would stand a very good chance getting this role. I am annoyed as I feel I'm now at a disadvantage and my career is suffering because I've chosen to have a child. I appreciate that I still have the opportunity to apply but I'm pretty sure I won't get it knowing I'll be absent for 6 months of it!
I know the timings are nobodies fault but AIBU to be annoyed at this and think it's so hard for women to have kids and a successful career?

[quote user1464279374]@AlexaShutUp absolutely! I'm a big campaigner for that within my industry. But change is sadly slow... [/quote]
I agree, but it's a lot slower than it could be partly because of all the men who have female partners picking up the slack!

So few of the male staff in my team ever even ask for flexibility, even though there would be no problem in them having it. I'm guessing it's easier for them to just leave it to their female partners...

@AlexaShutUp 1000%. Drives me mad. Always remember in our NCT group we were the only couple sharing leave whereas in all 7 other couples the guy was having 1-2 weeks off and that was it! No question!

Or maybe it's time that we changed our understanding of how flexible "traditional" jobs can be so that both male and female parents are able to do their fair share?

The women I know throughly enjoyed being on mat leave and not having to be at work.

One of my colleagues moaned her mat leave was ruined with covid as her DH had to wfh and she wanted him out the house!

I don't know any men that would want to share care on mat leave

Ergo you can't have it all and can't have it both ways.

Ergo you can't have it all and can't have it both ways.

Or you can only have it all if you choose to reproduce with a half decent man who is prepared to pull his weight?

@AlexaShutUp

Ergo you can't have it all and can't have it both ways.

Or you can only have it all if you choose to reproduce with a half decent man who is prepared to pull his weight?

I was meaning the women who wanted the full mat leave as most of them do.

If you'd read it properly. Most I've met want the full mat leave of a year off and don't want to share it.

I am quite inspired by reading everyone's success stories. But they all seem to rely on having a partner anyway, no - either for sharing childcare and chores, or finances? If the second parent chooses to walk away, managing a full time career becomes near to impossible.

Actually @ActonSquirrel, I did read it and you didn't actually say anything about women being unwilling to share the leave. I get what you mean though, and I agree. It doesn't matter how much men are willing to step up if their female partners won't give them the opportunity.

I thoroughly enjoyed my maternity leave and loved the break from work, but I went back at 6 months and DH took over from that point.

@forinborin

I am quite inspired by reading everyone's success stories. But they all seem to rely on having a partner anyway, no - either for sharing childcare and chores, or finances? If the second parent chooses to walk away, managing a full time career becomes near to impossible.

I actually think I could have managed pretty well by myself if DH had walked out. As it was, he was often away for 2-3 months at a time (pre-covid), so I had to have things set up in such a way that I could function without him. I did earn a decent salary though. I do acknowledge that it would be much harder on a low income.

Sorry, that last post sounded quite dismissive of the challenges faced by single parents, which wasn't my intention. I recognise that there is an emotional burden to parenting without a partner, and I don't want to belittle that at all. I just meant that, on a practical, day-to-day level, I could have managed things pretty well on my own (and often did!).

@0Cripes

I'm pregnant with DC3 and due soon. My boss recently announced he was leaving at the end of this month on a 9 month secondment. His role is a natural progression for me and he has been teeing me up for it for 7 years. However, someone will backfill his role and gain experience for 9 months that I won't have a chance to get, therefore when the permanent position comes up (my boss has no intention to return) I'll be at a disadvantage. If I wasn't going on mat leave I would stand a very good chance getting this role. I am annoyed as I feel I'm now at a disadvantage and my career is suffering because I've chosen to have a child. I appreciate that I still have the opportunity to apply but I'm pretty sure I won't get it knowing I'll be absent for 6 months of it! I know the timings are nobodies fault but AIBU to be annoyed at this and think it's so hard for women to have kids and a successful career?

If you really cared that much about your career you wouldn’t have sought to have a third child or have a 9 mth mat leave. Both of these things are luxuries.

No one, irrespective of their sex can have it all. Life is all about compromise and prioritising what is important to you over things that are less important.

Anyone who tries to 'have it all' will just end up frustrated and disappointed IMO.

I actually think I could have managed pretty well by myself if DH had walked out. As it was, he was often away for 2-3 months at a time (pre-covid), so I had to have things set up in such a way that I could function without him. I did earn a decent salary though. I do acknowledge that it would be much harder on a low income.
That's quite encouraging to hear. I remember, several years ago, childcare bills of >£3K, which were barely manageable even on the mn cliched six-figures salary as a single parent, and how I wondered at that time whether other professional single mothers just have to drop out from their chosen careers. Had my salary been even 5K lower (which is a question of getting / not getting a single promotion, or maybe not changing the job at the right time - so a matter of luck rather than ability), I probably could not have afforded to stay in work then.

@AlexaShutUp

Sorry, that last post sounded quite dismissive of the challenges faced by single parents, which wasn't my intention. I recognise that there is an emotional burden to parenting without a partner, and I don't want to belittle that at all. I just meant that, on a practical, day-to-day level, I could have managed things pretty well on my own (and often did!).

No, not at all - quite the opposite, it was encouraging to read!

@ACreakingGateNeverStops

No one, irrespective of their sex can have it all. Life is all about compromise and prioritising what is important to you over things that are less important.

Anyone who tries to 'have it all' will just end up frustrated and disappointed IMO.

Depends what "having it all" means though, doesn't it?

If it means having a happy family life, good relationships with your kids and a hands on approach to parenting alongside a successful career in a job that you find satisfying, I would say that plenty of people - male and female - do have it all. What does it mean to you?

That's good @forinborin!

For various reasons, we have always covered our costs from my salary alone, so I have always known that I'd be fine without DH financially. I know that I'm lucky to be in that position though, and I've always been able to negotiate quite flexible working, which has obviously helped a lot.

I often wonder if it's easier to fall into these stereotypical roles when the man is the higher earner. I am the main earner in our family, and bring in several multiples of DH's salary, but it never occurred to me that I shouldn't do my fair share of looking after dd when she was ill etc. Tbh, it was always easier for me to be flexible in a more senior role in any case

Maybe in some cases, but in others the main earner can’t afford to take sudden days off or abandon his work responsibilities on a regular basis, especially if he’s going for promotions. Or has lots of colleagues relying on him, the weight of responsibility for providing etc.

Whereas I could walk out of my job and it wouldn’t really matter as far as family finances are concerned, it certainly wouldn’t make any difference to bills/mortgage. I only work because I like it and want to keep that door open.

I know plenty of couples who sadly can’t afford to have both parents FT, as they can’t afford childcare and before/after school clubs or holiday clubs.

It takes up to a year for a woman’s body to properly recover from childbirth and pregnancy

Everyone is different. My sister had a baby on Wednesday and was back at work on the following Sunday (a chef, not a desk job). Lives in a country with no paid mat leave.

And looking after a baby can be far more wearing on the body than many jobs.

I often wonder if it's easier to fall into these stereotypical roles when the man is the higher earner. I am the main earner in our family, and bring in several multiples of DH's salary, but it never occurred to me that I shouldn't do my fair share of looking after dd when she was ill etc. Tbh, it was always easier for me to be flexible in a more senior role in any case

Women with kids do get more flexibility than men in senior roles. I have seen it amongst my female friends - in several cases they work in the same industries and earn the same money as their husbands but seem to get a lot more leeway when it comes to holidays / wfh / flexible working etc. I guess it’s because ‘senior’ women are still less likely to be team managers or have multiple responsibility sets.

Could you use your KIT days to show willing and introduce yourself to the new role? Make it clear to whoever you need to that your maternity leave won’t impact how you approach the job when maternity ends.

Maybe in some cases, but in others the main earner can’t afford to take sudden days off or abandon his work responsibilities on a regular basis, especially if he’s going for promotions. Or has lots of colleagues relying on him, the weight of responsibility for providing etc.

Sorry, but I don't really buy this. There are very few jobs in which people really couldn't take time out to deal with family emergencies. It's simply that many men don't feel the need.

We need to get to the point where being an equal and responsible parent won't stop you from getting promotions, providing for your family etc. It should just be an accepted fact of working life, as it is already for many women and for the minority of men who do their fair share.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of the men I manage would tell their partners that they couldn't possibly have the time off work to deal with childcare issues because they are far too busy, have too many important commitments and too many people relying on them. I presume that this is why they never even ask for flexibility despite having young children at home. As their manager, I know that their female colleagues are equally busy, have just as many important commitments and just as many people relying on them, and yet they somehow manage to juggle domestic responsibilities as well. Because they have to. And as their manager, I also know that I would be happy to accommodate requests for flexibility from those male members of staff, if they would only ask, and that I would never hold this against them in terms of their career progression. And yet they rarely even ask.

Women with kids do get more flexibility than men in senior roles. I have seen it amongst my female friends - in several cases they work in the same industries and earn the same money as their husbands but seem to get a lot more leeway when it comes to holidays / wfh / flexible working etc. I guess it’s because ‘senior’ women are still less likely to be team managers or have multiple responsibility sets.

Again, I'm convinced that women get more flexibility simply because they ask for it. Very few men ask.

The few men I've known who have asked have successfully managed to negotiate the flexible working that they require.

Women with kids do get more flexibility than men in senior roles. I have seen it amongst my female friends - in several cases they work in the same industries and earn the same money as their husbands but seem to get a lot more leeway when it comes to holidays / wfh / flexible working etc. I guess it’s because ‘senior’ women are still less likely to be team managers or have multiple responsibility sets.

Women are less likely to be team managers or have multiple responsibilities?

Are you serious?

I have been recently promoted to director by my employer. We all have teams and multiple responsibilities, which employers pay women the same as men, but give them less work? Or decide to give them roles where they don't have teams? I would like to work for one one them. I will apply today.

Women, get the flexibility because they ask for it or use the flexibility that is available in the role. As a director I can work from wherever I want, when I want. So I plan around my family life. Non of the men do that. Often many of them make sure they are doing the opposite and their wives have no idea how flexible they could be.

And that's across the 3 big UK companies I have worked in. Women use the flexibility, men don't.

@AlexaShutUp

Women with kids do get more flexibility than men in senior roles. I have seen it amongst my female friends - in several cases they work in the same industries and earn the same money as their husbands but seem to get a lot more leeway when it comes to holidays / wfh / flexible working etc. I guess it’s because ‘senior’ women are still less likely to be team managers or have multiple responsibility sets.

Again, I'm convinced that women get more flexibility simply because they ask for it. Very few men ask.

The few men I've known who have asked have successfully managed to negotiate the flexible working that they require.

I'd disagree with that. While in theory DH has more flexibility than I do (an unlimited holiday time policy) the attitude when he requests time to take care of the DC is "can't your wife take care of that?" whereas if I ask, I get somewhat more understanding. As a consequence I wind up being the one doing all of the doctors visits, sick days, quarantine schooling, etc. It's not that he doesn't ask, it's that there seems to be genuine unwillingness to grant it.

Perhaps it's unique to the sector the tech sector has been called out on threads here before for advertising these "unlimited holiday" clauses that turn out to be quite limited in actual fact but it is not unique to the current employer.

I had it all with one child and went back to work when he was 6 weeks old (single parent), but three - no way.

While in theory DH has more flexibility than I do (an unlimited holiday time policy) the attitude when he requests time to take care of the DC is "can't your wife take care of that?" whereas if I ask, I get somewhat more understanding.

So what do they say when he explains that, no, his wife cannot do that because he is an equal parent who needs to share the responsibility for his children?

I'm sorry, but if men really wanted to work flexibly enough to take on their fair share, then they would make it happen. There are very few jobs in which this genuinely isn't possible. Perhaps your dh isn't pushing back against his employer's sexist approach too hard because, deep down, he believes that the children are primarily your responsibility? And you seem willing to accept that, so perhaps you agree?

It's funny how the men who are genuinely committed to challenging sexism and sharing the responsibility always seem to manage to negotiate with their employers successfully.