Scotland to trial 4-day working week

[MyBadHabitsLeadToYou]

With no consequential pay reduction.

I couldn’t find a thread on this. Apologies if I have missed one.

I’m not sure what to make of this. I already work a four-day week (so that my four year old isn’t in full time nursery) and it’s a nice balance. But sometimes a bit stressful because my workload is heavy so it’s one less day in which to get things done. However, soooo many people are so overworked and stressed and it would be good for mental health etc.

But I’m not entirely clear on how this will work in practice e.g small private businesses. Twitter views are very mixed. How will it benefit retail staff etc, will it only benefit the office workers…

Just wondering what the consensus is.

At 80% pay it could work for some. Mostly it's Scotland being ridiculous again, driven by middle class office workers.

@Pumperthepumper

I didn’t say more of them. I said drop the targets so you’re no longer building a house in x number of days and relying on everyone working 12 hour shifts and not getting paid for overtime.

That just means that other companies will get the tender. It's a competitive market. And if company a cannot deliver then company b will.

That just means that other companies will get the tender. It's a competitive market. And if company a cannot deliver then company b will.

Why? If company B did the same thing?

@Pumperthepumper

Also, dropping hours without dropping pay is the whole point of this thread.

Cutting the number of working days without cutting pay is the point of the thread. That does not necessarily translate into a drop of hours over a week.

@DadOfTheMoment

At 80% pay it could work for some. Mostly it's Scotland being ridiculous again, driven by middle class office workers.

You’re on a thread where people are grateful for twelve hour shifts with additional, unpaid, overtime.

That’s the ridiculous bit.

@Pumperthepumper

Also, dropping hours without dropping pay is the whole point of this thread.

And given most in construction are paid an hourly rate, rather than a salary a drop in hours worked will result in a drop in pay.

Some sites may not pay overtime but the ones I know all do. But again not always as clear cut as that as many sites use self employed sub contractors.

@tigger1001 again, I’m not pretending to be an expert in the very specific salary details of every single person on a construction site.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@tigger1001 again, I’m not pretending to be an expert in the very specific salary details of every single person on a construction site.[/quote]
that is the reality for lots of workers on site - hourly rate of pay. Reduction of these hours = drop in pay.

Many will "make hay while the sun shines" as redundancies in construction are relatively common in my experience as companies will take workers on when needed, but let them go when not.

In order to win contracts companies need to remain competitive.

In all honestly the 4 day week thing was just a good sound bite. The actual reality is very different for most. Especially if the take away is a drop in hours but not a drop in pay. Most employers would struggle with that, especially in current climate. The work level doesn't just drop and extra staff cost money.

Fine, construction workers are lost to us, they have no choice but to work twelve hour days with no overtime, they should be grateful and there’s nothing we can do about it.

What about everyone else?

It’s not just the construction industry though, it’s most of the private sector. Try doing an economics course, or reading the business sector of the newspaper, or talking to a small business owner if you want to know about why this plan is totally unworkable for anyone who’s wages are paid for by anyone other than the state - I.e. taxpayers!

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

It’s not just the construction industry though, it’s most of the private sector. Try doing an economics course, or reading the business sector of the newspaper, or talking to a small business owner if you want to know about why this plan is totally unworkable for anyone who’s wages are paid for by anyone other than the state - I.e. taxpayers!

I don’t know why you think I don’t work in the private sector.

Let’s focus on the public sector again: specifically your children’s school in Edinburgh. You already pay tax to pay for those 4.5 days.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

It’s not just the construction industry though, it’s most of the private sector. Try doing an economics course, or reading the business sector of the newspaper, or talking to a small business owner if you want to know about why this plan is totally unworkable for anyone who’s wages are paid for by anyone other than the state - I.e. taxpayers!

Agreed.

Working less hours for same pay sounds great. Until you realise the financial pressure that puts on employers and in current times many are just keeping their heads above water.

I do work a 4 day full time week and it works in the main part well for me. Not always so great for my employer as sometimes they need something done ASAP on a day I'm not here. But as I was part time and increased my hours it's something they live with.

@tigger1001 (sorry can’t quote) the ‘same pay’ argument is also somewhat of a red herring.
In jobs where people earn a high salary there are plenty who choose (like you) to work 4 hour days. But in these jobs the cost of doing so is cheaper.
I’d imagine that if more and more employers offer 4 day weeks as an incentive for employees then it could even become the norm!

Also it does indeed apply to middle class office workers. There’s no distinction between weekdays and weekends in many professions such as nursing.

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@tigger1001 (sorry can’t quote) the ‘same pay’ argument is also somewhat of a red herring.
In jobs where people earn a high salary there are plenty who choose (like you) to work 4 hour days. But in these jobs the cost of doing so is cheaper.
I’d imagine that if more and more employers offer 4 day weeks as an incentive for employees then it could even become the norm!

Also it does indeed apply to middle class office workers. There’s no distinction between weekdays and weekends in many professions such as nursing.[/quote]
Supermarket workers? Library staff? Education? Post office staff?

I'd love to examine one of these workplaces that people are saying on here; where if a 4 day week became standard, their work colleagues would just have 100% productivity over the 4 days, and not in any single way, treat it like having a bank holiday every week and just continue on with the same productivity and enthusiasm over those 4 days instead. If you really believe it would be anything other than the 2nd example I've listed, I think you're naive.

@Biker47

I'd love to examine one of these workplaces that people are saying on here; where if a 4 day week became standard, their work colleagues would just have 100% productivity over the 4 days, and not in any single way, treat it like having a bank holiday every week and just continue on with the same productivity and enthusiasm over those 4 days instead. If you really believe it would be anything other than the 2nd example I've listed, I think you're naive.

What was your second example?

And I don’t think it would be: people generally take pride in their work if they’re happy to be there.

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@tigger1001 (sorry can’t quote) the ‘same pay’ argument is also somewhat of a red herring.
In jobs where people earn a high salary there are plenty who choose (like you) to work 4 hour days. But in these jobs the cost of doing so is cheaper.
I’d imagine that if more and more employers offer 4 day weeks as an incentive for employees then it could even become the norm!

Also it does indeed apply to middle class office workers. There’s no distinction between weekdays and weekends in many professions such as nursing.[/quote]
Wish I did earn a high salary.

I get paid for the hours I do, I just do full time in 4 days. It does work for me not so sure it works for my employer as well as it does for me. The office is open 5 days and we can work overtime if needed as there is more than enough work.

My employer would struggle if they just allowed everyone to work 4 days but less hours overall. It may be a possibility to increase everyone's hours over 4 days and only operate 4 days but they couldn't cope with the workload to drop 7 hours from everyone's working week. And as they wouldn't be dropping the wages bill they would struggle to fund more staff. Which means the cost of the service would go up.

I'm well aware that these working in medical care dont just work week days. Many do work long shifts though.

Instead of messing around and funding this study the government could have used that money in healthcare. Or been more focused on zero hour contracts (again a difficult area as they do work for some).

@Biker47

I'd love to examine one of these workplaces that people are saying on here; where if a 4 day week became standard, their work colleagues would just have 100% productivity over the 4 days, and not in any single way, treat it like having a bank holiday every week and just continue on with the same productivity and enthusiasm over those 4 days instead. If you really believe it would be anything other than the 2nd example I've listed, I think you're naive.

In most places I’ve worked it doesn’t really change productivity. Mostly helps retain key staff. There has been a slight jump but then it becomes ‘normal’ and everyone either went back to their old ways or worked extra on the 4 days to make up for dropped day.

I have seen productivity improve in one place but it had nothing much to do with the ‘4 day week’ - other changes like reporting structure and automation was put in place and
Productivity was already improving.

@tigger1001(can’t quote) exactly. Zero hour contracts work for ‘some’, but they shouldn’t become the ‘norm’.
In the scale of worthwhile stuff to spend money on employee rights and ensuring that people don’t overwork is more important than another official day of holiday

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@tigger1001(can’t quote) exactly. Zero hour contracts work for ‘some’, but they shouldn’t become the ‘norm’.
In the scale of worthwhile stuff to spend money on employee rights and ensuring that people don’t overwork is more important than another official day of holiday[/quote]
A couple of pages ago you were saying it wouldn’t work because people would have to be paid for the overtime they work.

You can’t quote a post that already contains a quote, that’s why.

@SofiaMichelle

Jesus wept.

Is there no end to what The SNP will try to do to bribe the population into voting for independence.

It's completely and utterly unaffordable. Scotland is already subsidised by England due tho the Barnett formula.

I sincerely hope they do gain independence before they sink the entire UK.

All the nations of the UK should be funded the same, it's immoral that Scotland, and others, can make grandiose promises knowing that they won't have to pay for it.

I'm sure the same argument was put forward when they wanted to reduce the 6 day week to 5 1/2 day week.

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@tigger1001(can’t quote) exactly. Zero hour contracts work for ‘some’, but they shouldn’t become the ‘norm’.
In the scale of worthwhile stuff to spend money on employee rights and ensuring that people don’t overwork is more important than another official day of holiday[/quote]
I agree. Zero hours certainly shouldn't be the norm. Am reluctant to say they should be banned as they do work for some - know a few people who like being on them. But for many they are just not a stable enough way to earn a regular wage.

"All the nations of the UK should be funded the same, it's immoral that Scotland, and others, can make grandiose promises knowing that they won't have to pay for "

After today's announcement that's a bit rich.

@Pinkyjack

I'm sure the same argument was put forward when they wanted to reduce the 6 day week to 5 1/2 day week.

The weekend arose from steps taken from a few companies - as a reward for productive workers , and in a couple of cases to keep factory employees but prevent them producing such a big surplus that it made workers risk redundancy. Eventually many employers saw the benefits and adopted it of their own accord in the U.K. Even now the 4 day week is already implemented in some companies and more are following. So nobody’s saying that it won’t happen eventually but the conditions have to be right. Also it’s interesting to note that the 5 day week happened in a time of unions and strong worker rights. Where employees actually had a semblance of bargaining power. The conditioning the U.K. now is one of stark inequality where those with in-demand skills have a lot of it but those at the bottom are on zero hour contracts/minimum wage with little prospects for employers investing in them.