Scotland to trial 4-day working week

[MyBadHabitsLeadToYou]

With no consequential pay reduction.

I couldn’t find a thread on this. Apologies if I have missed one.

I’m not sure what to make of this. I already work a four-day week (so that my four year old isn’t in full time nursery) and it’s a nice balance. But sometimes a bit stressful because my workload is heavy so it’s one less day in which to get things done. However, soooo many people are so overworked and stressed and it would be good for mental health etc.

But I’m not entirely clear on how this will work in practice e.g small private businesses. Twitter views are very mixed. How will it benefit retail staff etc, will it only benefit the office workers…

Just wondering what the consensus is.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

I just don’t think Pumper - like the SNP - understands how private enterprise works. Private companies always drive efficiencies, and make inefficient workers redundant. If a construction company wants people to work 5 x 10 hour shifts then they will pay people who are prepared to do that and employ them. There is no slack in the working day to cut, so you can’t do 5 days work in 4 without a negative effect. I asked a while back which private sector companies could make this work and have had no reply.

Technology teams where I /acquaintances have worked - financial services firm, big energy company and a mid-tier startup. 4 day week on full time pay. However :

• These are all experienced people with unique skills. Cheaper to give them a day off than to pay full market rate.
• At ‘crunch time’ close to product releases people worked overtime without complaint.

In other places people have chosen to go 4 days a week but base pay was high enough that the effects wasn’t detrimental.

Where it’s failed : teams where people worked overtime even on 5 days weeks (not because of inefficiency but because they were understaffed). Teams where they did become more efficient but realised that size wasn’t needed so some people ‘redeployed’.

:)

At ‘crunch time’ close to product releases people worked overtime without complaint.

Were they paid for that overtime?

I'm sure people claimed a 5 day week would be unworkable when we moved from a 6 day working week, and they probably used the exact same arguments as some people here are doing.

@AntsInPenzance

I'm sure people claimed a 5 day week would be unworkable when we moved from a 6 day working week, and they probably used the exact same arguments as some people here are doing.

Probably. Twelve hour days are reasonable because of polish builders being exploited and overtime is something you should do for the good of the company.

Paid overtime is very rare in the private sector, esp at senior grades. It’s all part of working life. If you refused to work it you’d be first out of the door in the next redundancy round and you’d get no bonus.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@letmethinkaboutitfornow you can start your own campaign for English independence? Nobody is stopping you.[/quote]
I really like Welsh (and northern Irish) people!

@JustAnotherPoster00 do you think any other nation could survive without the strength of England and the unity?

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

Paid overtime is very rare in the private sector, esp at senior grades. It’s all part of working life. If you refused to work it you’d be first out of the door in the next redundancy round and you’d get no bonus.

That’s another thing you’ve said that’s just completely false.

[quote letmethinkaboutitfornow]@JustAnotherPoster00 do you think any other nation could survive without the strength of England and the unity?[/quote]
Just not Scottish people? That’s a bold statement.

Sorry, quoted the wrong post @letmethinkaboutitfornow - just to confirm it’s all Scottish people you have an issue with? The entire nation of Scotland?

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

Paid overtime is very rare in the private sector, esp at senior grades. It’s all part of working life. If you refused to work it you’d be first out of the door in the next redundancy round and you’d get no bonus.

It can’t be helped for senior grades because their jobs require decision making that can’t always be delegated. Good companies though give a degree of flexibility - as long as your work is complete and meets the required standards nobody tracks your hours…

@TractorAndHeadphones so just to confirm, your reasons why the four-day week couldn’t be successful is because it would mean everyone being paid for the overtime they work?

Does nobody else see an issue here?

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

Paid overtime is very rare in the private sector, esp at senior grades. It’s all part of working life. If you refused to work it you’d be first out of the door in the next redundancy round and you’d get no bonus.

It's actually quite common. Just not in office jobs. Loads of people get o/t rates for working Saturdays or bank holidays, for example.

@ChaneySays (can’t quote) I thought the poster was referring to salaried office jobs (I heard that in the public sector these get paid OT)?
I also get paid overtime , hourly if on-call but that’s completely different to my day job. If I chose to work extra for that I wouldn’t get paid, but some public sector people do. I don’t think it’s standard across all depts though!

@ChaneySays It's actually quite common. Just not in office jobs. Loads of people get o/t rates for working Saturdays or bank holidays, for example.

And is that on top of working the 12 hour shifts?

I'm in a sector where four day weeks are normal so I've some experience.

If you have excellent productivity, the only way you can reduce everyone's hours by 20% is either to increase the headcount by 20%, or reduce output by 20%. There's not much you can do to improve the productivity of your bin men for example, they don't waste much time when loading bins and you can't control them getting delayed by traffic.

If you have poorer productivity and you felt that by changing the work/life balance for your employees you could get the same output from them in four days because they would be more motivated and spend less time flicking paper aeroplanes around the office, then it might work. You might also improve the productivity of your team of five security guards to replace the 20% lost by an extra day off by providing CCTV so that the four of them remaining on a given shift can watch a larger area.

But it’s normal because that’s the output patterns your employer has decided on. There’s nothing to stop them stretching it to six. Working class people and manual workers also deserve a reasonable work schedule and it’s sad you don’t see that.

It's nothing to do with what my employer has decided. 🤣 Builders don't generally work on weekends and construction sites aren't open. I'm also pretty sure most wouldn't want to work an extra day to in order to finish a bit earlier in the week

However, a lot of labourers do only work 8-4, but the managers tend to work a bit longer because....y'know....responsibility. Same for a lot of the peripheral businesses - truck drivers, mechanics, etc. It's not unusual for class 1 truckers to work 60 hour weeks as the 48 hour average doesn't cover POA (time spent waiting on site) so up to a 15 hour day is legal.

I prefer to not work much over 10 hours a day, but tbh I can deal with it as during the quiet season I have plenty of days where I'm done by lunchtime but still with full pay.

But tbh if you think working over eight hours is some manner of atrocity/catastrophic violation of human rights then honestly you've probably lived a very cushy life and need to get in touch with the real world.

And is that on top of working the 12 hour shifts?

It was actually a problem when I worked in logistics that drivers wanted to try and bend the rules and work ever more hours. I'd imagine it's still an issue with hourly rates having recently risen to £20 in some driving jobs. Although it may shock some, plenty of working class guys will happily work ten hours a day to make over £50k a year, especially if they were already working eight hours a day but only making say £22k in a manual job previously.

You couldn't really exceed the actual number of driving hours or time driven without a break as the DVSA come down like a ton of bricks on those who break the EU driver rules. However, the WTD isn't really enforced, so although you shouldn't average more than 48hrs weekly over a three month period, plenty of drivers work close to 60 hours week in, week out, and you even see adverts for jobs wth 55 hour weeks.

Could there actually be a link between men earning more and being prepared to work more hours. 🤔

@ChaneySays

But it’s normal because that’s the output patterns your employer has decided on. There’s nothing to stop them stretching it to six. Working class people and manual workers also deserve a reasonable work schedule and it’s sad you don’t see that.

It's nothing to do with what my employer has decided. 🤣 Builders don't generally work on weekends and construction sites aren't open. I'm also pretty sure most wouldn't want to work an extra day to in order to finish a bit earlier in the week

However, a lot of labourers do only work 8-4, but the managers tend to work a bit longer because....y'know....responsibility. Same for a lot of the peripheral businesses - truck drivers, mechanics, etc. It's not unusual for class 1 truckers to work 60 hour weeks as the 48 hour average doesn't cover POA (time spent waiting on site) so up to a 15 hour day is legal.

I prefer to not work much over 10 hours a day, but tbh I can deal with it as during the quiet season I have plenty of days where I'm done by lunchtime but still with full pay.

But tbh if you think working over eight hours is some manner of atrocity/catastrophic violation of human rights then honestly you've probably lived a very cushy life and need to get in touch with the real world.

Of course it is - your boss has decided that (again, I’m not an expert so this is a generalisation) a house can be built in x days so long as everyone does 10 but often 12 hour days. There’s absolutely nothing stopping them from changing that x to y and having everyone work 8 hour days.

I think a life working constant twelve hour shifts to make money for someone else is horrendous but not only that, you’re blinkered to the idea it could change. That makes it even worse.

"Of course it is - your boss has decided that (again, I’m not an expert so this is a generalisation) a house can be built in x days so long as everyone does 10 but often 12 hour days. There’s absolutely nothing stopping them from changing that x to y and having everyone work 8 hour days.

I think a life working constant twelve hour shifts to make money for someone else is horrendous but not only that, you’re blinkered to the idea it could change. That makes it even worse."

I think that's an overly simplistic view of the construction industry.

For a start there is rarely only one company involved on site - it would mean coordinating between companies their availability and working patterns, even more so than they already do. In addition, especially when house building, which is often done in phases, there very well may be restrictions placed on the companies days they can work as often there will be people already living in the scheme in earlier build houses who don't want construction work going on at the weekend.

Also many on site are not employed but self employed.

Then you have weather. There is weather that means certain aspects just cannot be done on that given day so it does mean a catch up on other days and possibly longer hours on that day. You can't just stop a concrete pour and say oh well we will do the rest tomorrow. You are on site until it's done.

Then there are employees. Maybe employees would rather work a longer day in order to do fewer days, rather than shorter days but more.

I work full time hours in 4 days. I much rather having a 3 day weekend than spreading my time over 5 days and working a shorter day. I personally would get no benefit from that.

There isn't a one size fits all and some will benefit from staff doing longer days while some won't.

Yes, I appreciate that. I’ve said several times it wouldn’t work for everyone.

I’m more taking issue with this idea that working class people must work 12 hour days with no paid overtime out of some loyalty to the company or out of some weird class pride that means you’re grateful to be exploited.

Then there are employees. Maybe employees would rather work a longer day in order to do fewer days, rather than shorter days but more.

That’s not Chaney’s workplace though, where they often work 12 hour days and never less than 10.

@Pumperthepumper

Yes, I appreciate that. I’ve said several times it wouldn’t work for everyone.

I’m more taking issue with this idea that working class people must work 12 hour days with no paid overtime out of some loyalty to the company or out of some weird class pride that means you’re grateful to be exploited.

Then there are employees. Maybe employees would rather work a longer day in order to do fewer days, rather than shorter days but more.

That’s not Chaney’s workplace though, where they often work 12 hour days and never less than 10.

But your suggestion is they work shorter days but more of them.

Can't see that being popular with the site staff.

And most if not all the labourers on a site get paid hourly so suggesting they drop hours means they drop pay.

I didn’t say more of them. I said drop the targets so you’re no longer building a house in x number of days and relying on everyone working 12 hour shifts and not getting paid for overtime.

Also, dropping hours without dropping pay is the whole point of this thread.