To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

Let's try to turn this argument around:

Almost 3.6 million adults aged between 16 and 64 years have never done paid work

Are you all happy that these people who only ever take from the system, but never contribute, will have free care? Or are you still all insistent that those who have paid income tax, NI, stamp duty, CGT, etc etc etc, you know all those wealthy people sitting in £1m pound houses (about 1m) AND already pay towards their care, need to pay more because it's not fair?

Well, for us the burning question is when does paying for care start to count. DMIL is self-funding, from savings, her state and widow's pensions, and making up the balance of £49k pa from the proceeds of the sale of her house, which was sold to prevent further compounding the equity release debt. So far, she's been there 22 months and for the first time in years, she looks quite healthy despite advancing vascular dementia. It's her money to spend, not her heirs, although I feel very sorry for my DSIL who is depending on inheriting a bit to give her more security when she retires -- from agency care work.

@BigWoollyJumpers

Let's try to turn this argument around:

Almost 3.6 million adults aged between 16 and 64 years have never done paid work

Are you all happy that these people who only ever take from the system, but never contribute, will have free care? Or are you still all insistent that those who have paid income tax, NI, stamp duty, CGT, etc etc etc, you know all those wealthy people sitting in £1m pound houses (about 1m) AND already pay towards their care, need to pay more because it's not fair?

Could you share the same figures for those 65+, please, so that we're comparing like with like?

You are suggesting that those over 65 have paid 'income tax, NI, stamp duty, CGT etc', while the 3.9 million you cite have not.

That isn't true. We have higher workforce participation than at any time in our history.

We also have a higher rate of asset-based wealth, which is disproportionately owned by older demographics (again, the 1 in 4 retirees living in a millionaire household is quite startling). A great deal of that wealth was not earned, income tax wasn't paid on it, NI wasn't paid on it. It's simply a function of the asset boom and the main driver of that wealth accumulation was luck, in terms of when those people were born and economically active.

Perhaps there should be a special windfall tax for housing profit? With liquidity provided by the state until the home was sold, including after death.

(Again, such a tax would fuck me over significantly, but that's because I'm lucky to have bought when I did, but not nearly so lucky as someone who bought the same house 20 years earlier would have been. But it would be a fuckload fairer than NI.)

My dad saved and saved and nearly every penny went on care homes fees.
He didn't have a home to sell . Was a modest basic care home , nothing fancy at all
Some of the others in the home spent all their money and had it paid for
What's the point in doing the 'right things' in life ?
This is how people feel, my dad wasn't like this and didn't hide it away because he was honest and upfront and saved for his old age and worked nearly fifty years too , didn't ever take much out of the system either !! he had morals ( as do many others of course !)
Trouble is, we know that it's always the ones doing the right things that get penalized.
Such is life.

@JassyRadlett We have higher workforce participation than at any time in our history.

And the highest number of part time workers in our history. Many of whom are working so few hours, they're not paying any NIC or income tax.

@the80sweregreat

My dad saved and saved and nearly every penny went on care homes fees. He didn't have a home to sell . Was a modest basic care home , nothing fancy at all Some of the others in the home spent all their money and had it paid for What's the point in doing the 'right things' in life ? This is how people feel, my dad wasn't like this and didn't hide it away because he was honest and upfront and saved for his old age and worked nearly fifty years too , didn't ever take much out of the system either !! he had morals ( as do many others of course !) Trouble is, we know that it's always the ones doing the right things that get penalized. Such is life.

Why didn’t he have a home to sell? Also what’s doing the “right thing”- most of us don’t hide our income, most of us aren’t Amazon. Also if your dad had kids, used the nhs and put kids through education, had a free travel pass, used the winter fuel allowance then like most of us be probably was a net taker. I’m in no way putting down your father my point is, the daily mail way of describing a situation to seem hard done by isn’t strictly true

[quote user1497207191]**@JassyRadlett* We have higher workforce participation than at any time in our history.*

And the highest number of part time workers in our history. Many of whom are working so few hours, they're not paying any NIC or income tax.[/quote]
Not relevant to the figures the PP cited which was ‘never done paid work’.

Honest comparators are needed for honest debate. ‘Workshy 16-64s versus lifelong hardworking retirees’ is not borne out by data.

Particularly when you consider how many of the ‘never worked’ group are still in school or further education.

I can't a comparative statistic to assuage the non-working generation debate, but this is an interesting fact:

The number of over-65s who are employed has increased by 188% in the last 20 years, from 455,000 to 1.31 million, and the proportion has grown from just over 5% to just under 11%. In the past 10 years the number has increased from 763,000 to 1.3 million – a 71% increase.

My dad couldn't buy his own home.
It's done now. He paid fair and square , it's the others that will get away with paying that isn't.
How anyone can't see that I don't know !
Anyway, most people I know who may need a care home in the future won't be paying this new NI rise anyway , so I doubt they will not vote conservative or be that bothered by this .

The number of over-65s who are employed has increased by 188% in the last 20 years, from 455,000 to 1.31 million, and the proportion has grown from just over 5% to just under 11%. In the past 10 years the number has increased from 763,000 to 1.3 million – a 71% increase.

Interesting for its own sake but also not relevant to the argument you made that somehow the current cohort of working age people (with more people in the labour market than ever before) is working less than their predecessors.

Over 65 employment is hardly surprising with increased pension age, fewer manual jobs and more whitecollar jobs, shittier pension provision.

But it's not terribly relevant to the argument you made.

Looking at those ONS figures, the ONS is really clear that any increase in the population who have never worked is overwhelmingly students. To quote the ONS:

Young people who have never done paid work are more likely to stay in full-time education and less likely to be seeking work than they were 10 years ago.

Since 2008, there has been a 15% increase in the number of 16- to 24-year-olds who are studying and yet to do paid work, which has coincided with a 28% fall in those outside full-time education who are unemployed and have never had a paid job.

Lazy fuckers trying to get an education, eh? Also interesting to see the reduction in the rate of those who have never worked who aren't in full-time education.

The largest drop in the group of 'never worked' in those stats was the unemployed. Far fewer people who've never had a job for unemployment reasons between 2008-2018.

Looking at the part time work point a PP raised - I'm not sure it's true. The stats I've seen suggest a long term average of 33% between 1983 and 2017, which was where we broadly landed in 2017. There was an all time high in 2010 but it's dropped back again (CEIC figures) though not to 1980s levels which were closer to the 31% mark.

The time series of part time work hasn't accelerated again since 2017 according to the ONS - up to the pandemic part time was static but full time increased (and part time work has taken the greatest hammering during the pandemic.)

And of course not all part time workers will not be paying tax or NI (though it is a disproportionately low earning group.)

It is very hard to be fair but if we keep putting up taxes and have the state decide how our money is spent we move closer and close to a socialist state like North Korea, Cuba or China. The lowest UK tax rate is 20% income tax and 12% NI so 32% which is very high. Add on to that 9% student loan tax once someone is over £26k income and they have a marginal tax rate of 41% and that is just basic rate tax payers.

Given we ahave so few tax breaks that there were in the 1970s our tax rates are in practice very similar. My father in the 1970s could covenant money to student children lawfully and that was set against his tax. He had a large married's man's allowance. He could set mortgage interest against his tax, big pension contribution tax reliefs, child tax allowance and then child benefit which replaced it no matter how high your income and no student fees to pay for us 3 other than the maintenance/ rent part. I have spent £34k this year purely on higher education fees for my twins. When I did the similar course in 1981/82 despite my father's doctor's income Newcastle Council gave us a discretionary grant for all the fees (although none of the rent) and there were also rights for students to claim supplementary benefit (and I think even housing benefit) in university holidays.

People talk about the high tax 1970s but I would say 2021 is just as bad if not worse once you add on 20% VAT, my £4k a year council tax, no child benefit for many, having to help children with housing if you are able to do so etc etc

If the increase is largely going to the NHS as indicated today, I'm thoroughly behind it and would go as far as to say increase taxation by 5p in the £. Give the NHS what it wants and says it needs. Then watch them waste it. It is probably the only kever that will bring the public behind essential reform and the introduction of a continental system of health care.

It’ll go to the NHS, social care won’t see a penny. The catastrophic haemorrhaging of paid carers will continue, companies & charities will continue to hand back contracts for care they can’t deliver & ppl who cannot manage even the most basic tasks for themselves will be left at home to manage as best they can….

Will be interesting to see how the money will be allocated. Social care desperately needs significant funding but as do education, NHS, emergency services, state benefits. As a result of Brexit and Covid I was expecting significant tax increases but Boris seems to be looking at one issue at a time rather than the big picture on how to improve benefits and services overall.

@RosesAndHellebores

If the increase is largely going to the NHS as indicated today, I'm thoroughly behind it and would go as far as to say increase taxation by 5p in the £. Give the NHS what it wants and says it needs. Then watch them waste it. It is probably the only kever that will bring the public behind essential reform and the introduction of a continental system of health care.

Well Labour increased NIC by 2% and trebled the spending on the NHS. We all watched as it was wasted and ruinous PFI deals were signed which committed the NHS for decades to come. But despite all that, "the public" didn't seem to want the essential reform needed. I think the public fell hook line and sinker for the atriums and shiny new hospitals and fudged waiting list targets, and it's only becoming apparent as years pass and people need the NHS that it's not fit for purpose.

@user1497207191
Indeed and I think that's why there would be more appetite for reform this time and letting the NHS prove the issue is not one of resources is the way to go.

@the80sweregreat

My dad couldn't buy his own home. It's done now. He paid fair and square , it's the others that will get away with paying that isn't. How anyone can't see that I don't know ! Anyway, most people I know who may need a care home in the future won't be paying this new NI rise anyway , so I doubt they will not vote conservative or be that bothered by this .

Would you consider me doing 'the right thing' by working in a care home for too low a wage (ft) for me to rent and save for a deposit at the same time, or get a mortgage on my own? Or have savings that will exceed the minimum allowance, I'm likely to have, if I have no disasters between now and then, £5-10k in savings, saving what I currently am until official retirement age, or for as long as I can physically do it. If that needs to pay for my care, then so be it, if not, nice bonus but not something she should rely on, in the same way that if what my mum has needs to pay for her care, then that's what'll happen, it's not something I am banking on at all. If I get something, I'll re-evaluate my situation, if not I'll carry on as I am. Because I won't have a home to sell to fund my care, and will have to have state funded care, therefore is everyone working in care then doing the 'wrong' thing?

And please, no one start with the it's my choice, yes, yes it is, or 'get a better job' BS, because without people like me making that choice, social care would have even less staff, or a lot more expensive (if we were paid enough to afford to buy a home on one wage) and people wouldn't be having the option to have their elderly relatives cared for by someone else.

I've nothing at all against care homes workers or people that work and pay their taxes!
The ones I have a problem with are the ones that manage to hide their wealth or get away without paying for anything.
That is all

People talk about the high tax 1970s but I would say 2021 is just as bad if not worse once you add on 20% VAT, my £4k a year council tax, no child benefit for many, having to help children with housing if you are able to do so etc etc you’re probably right but please don’t overstate the case. In the 70s, basic income tax was 33% with NI on top, so 32% including NI isn’t that high. OK , no graduate tax, but there were very few graduates, around 5% went to uni the year I did.

Large marriage allowances because few women worked once they had children, and they weren’t pushed to get a sensible education because the mindset was still that they just needed a job to tide them over till they got married.

It seems from listening to the news that the money is not going to be ring fenced which IMO is where with it goes wrong with the NHS taking the lions share. Surely if people are being asked to invest into social care they should at least be assured that it will go on social care and not the NHS.

People talk about the high tax 1970s but I would say 2021 is just as bad if not worse once you add on 20% VAT, my £4k a year council tax, no child benefit for many, having to help children with housing if you are able to do so etc etc
But where is all the money going - I could swear where I am we are approaching a third world country standards in public transport, the standard of roads, not enough day centres, waits for medical treatment, poor judicial system (have been reading the secret barrister - depressing). Everywhere is crap!

Stircrazy@ it doesn’t sound ad if you are living in poverty if your CT is £4000 you must live in a bigger than average house, earn more than £5k a year. Think of the families who can’t feed their children or haven’t got a roof over their heads that’s poverty.

@Stircraazy

People talk about the high tax 1970s but I would say 2021 is just as bad if not worse once you add on 20% VAT, my £4k a year council tax, no child benefit for many, having to help children with housing if you are able to do so etc etc But where is all the money going - I could swear where I am we are approaching a third world country standards in public transport, the standard of roads, not enough day centres, waits for medical treatment, poor judicial system (have been reading the secret barrister - depressing). Everywhere is crap!

We're able to keep people alive a lot longer than we used to, but often in poor health and requiring huge amounts of medical and physical care. That is driving a large amount of our spending.

Relatedly, lack of spending on preventative health, along with cheaper food, labour saving devices and more cars means we have far more chronic lifestyle-related diseases that increase the disease burden.

Greater acknowledgement of mental health issues is a good thing but also a major cost.

Lack of social housing and job insecurity leads to further issues in low income groups.

As for the justice system, it's not all bad - far from perfect, but I still wouldn't swap with the 70s if I was, for example, a victim of domestic violence or a young black man.

At least people could afford a house and start a family in the 70s and social housing was more available

think the public fell hook line and sinker for the atriums and shiny new hospitals and fudged waiting list targets, and it's only becoming apparent as years pass and people need the NHS that it's not fit for purpose

The waiting lists weren’t fudged. The stats are freely available. The improvement in the first decade of this century was massive, to say otherwise is Tory propaganda. The deterioration has happened in the last ten years, thanks to austerity.