Can we go back to plastic free packaging?

[speakout]

No sure if this is the right place to post, but I picked up some Andrex toilet rolls the other day a 4 pack, cheaper than normal and wrapped in paper.
Does anyone remember when there was rarely any plastic packaging?
As a child I remember Dairy milk chocolate wrapped in foil and paper. Meat and fish wrapped in greaseproof and brown paper. Milk came in glass bottles. Cardboard cartons, soap wrapped in paper ( shower gel wasn't a thing). Blocks of ice cream came in cardboard boxes- frozen, glass bottles for sauce, vinegar, fruit and veg was sold loose- you took a shopping bag and put things like carrots, turnip directly into your bag. Smaller produce was packed in brown paper bags. . Strawberries and soft fruit were sold in cardboard cartons. Fizzy drinks came in glass returnable bottles. Bread was sold in waxed paper packing.
I rarely remember plastic packaging as a child.

@Knittingaddict - I hear you! I've been trying different plant milks and I can't deny it's a challenge to find one that I can happily drink in my tea. The challenge continues...

We have as a family been greatly reducing our meat consumption with some success (got the teenagers eating Tofu but DH won't go near the stuff)!

For me the biggest shock was cheese as I bloody love the stuff and was eating more to compensate for no meat! Now I realise that it's just as bad for the planet. It's going to take some time but I can only try ..

I think the focus on household food waste is another example of well-intentioned but misguided advice. Whether I incorporate that wilted broccoli into tonight's dinner or throw it out makes very little difference environmentally - the big hit is the energy and resources that have gone into growing and transporting it. The emphasis should be much more on not overbuying in the first place.

(I do have very strong feelings about food waste ethically - it seems very wrong to treat something so carelessly that millions of people are desperately short of - but that's a separate issue. I also appreciate that food waste in the supply chain and at the societal level does make a huge environmental difference and is worth tackling. I just think there are serious flaws in the many TV shows that demonstrate how to use up leftovers by buying another dozen ingredients that may themselves end up as waste.)

Some fruits and vegetables last longer in plastic. Like 5 times as long.

However look at the disposable nappies thread to see how people will refuse to stop filling up landfill with hundreds of non biodegradable nappies a month for a single child on the excuse of a momentary inconvenience

@heldinadream

Ok I really, really hate to rain on your thoughts but this is my DH's area of expertise (he's worked in environmental areas for nearly 60 years and is a double physics graduate) and it's important to understand that replacing plastic with paper is NOT some kind of environmental wonderland. You have to factor in a number of things including the pollution and environmental costs of manufacturing and transporting the equivalent protective paper is usually much heavier than its plastic counterpart leading to bigger transportation costs and more lorries on the road etc. These issues, some of which have been developing for nearly a century, do not have simple swapping out solutions. Sorry but there it is.

Interesting information, and the balance we don’t necessarily think about when we think plastic=bad and paper=good.

A balance would be good, like in all things.

I do find it depressing though where I work that people are still buying coffee in those throwaway cups.

I agree about trying not to waste food but the food recycling is good for things like banana skins or peelings.we have an excellent scheme where I live but not everyone will even bother as none of it is compulsory

Yes- and why do cucumbers need a condom?

Not RTFT so someone may have covered this but I believe cucumbers wrapped in plastic last something like four times longer, so less food waste. And that's been true in my experience. So sometimes not always black and white.

I agree it is complicated.

And someone asked for solutions. I believe the solutions need to be at a national / global level. Not just at an individual level. So that means getting involved in politics, writing to your MP and making a fuss. that can do much more good than buying soft mouldy broccoli (because it is not wrapped).

@GoodnightGrandma

My mum used to keep the butter paper in the fridge when we’d finished the butter, to grease cake tins.

So did mine!

And to a pp, milk still comes in glass bottles in this house, always has. Yes, it’s more expensive, but it’s one less thing to remember and cart back from the shops.

I'm not sure about packaging, but plastic bags are much more environmentally friendly than any other kind. Paper might have better pr, but the production of paper bags is far more energy costly. And cloth bags are like 20 times more than paper.

Yes it's a bloody minefield. The most important thing really is to reduce overall consumption and the obsession with economic growth, which is never going to happen. Individual consumers can do a bit, but we don't create the system.

Agreed 100%. I've been watching a bit of Russell Brand during lockdown (if you'd told me that years ago I'd have laughed in your face), and his "vision" of little self-sufficient, self-governing communities and a completely different way of life sounds pretty good to me. Do I like being able to go on my phone and have someone drive a Venti Caramel Latte in a throwaway cup from Starbucks to my door in 20 mins? Sure.
Would I be just as happy if all of that was taken away tomorrow? Probably.
The things that make me actually happy are my kids, seeing friends and family, walks in nature and books. You could have that in a hut in the woods, trading your chickens eggs for your neighbors tatties 😂

But that's not the system. And since the system is very unlikely to change, he might as well be describing a fairy kingdom.

I think the best we can hope for is governments taking action on companies. But it needs to be everything.

The refillery is 4 miles away but the tesco local is 4 minutes away. If all of the supermarkets are 'forced' to offer say 10% of products as refills, and X% local, then it would do a lot for accessibility and affordability - because they'll be competing with each other on a level playing field.

There's also the entire fashion industry encouraging you to buy new clothes every season. Stacey Dooley did a doc on how entire seas are vanishing, and rivers are running purple with dyes and chemicals and people are having to drink it anyway.

Has fashion always been like this? I'm in my 20s and it's felt like a constant cycle of 'camo is in but out by spring where it's now cold shoulders, but if you're still wearing cold shoulders come autumn you're going to look dated'. I tend to see the 20s-90s as decades long trends? But that's maybe because I didn't really live them.

The point is though I think everyone agrees we all need to change but we're all aware 'little changes' aren't going to make much difference. We need the world leaders to take pretty drastic action.

And it really needs to be now. Not in 2040.

@UpstreamSwimmer

I'm not sure about packaging, but plastic bags are much more environmentally friendly than any other kind. Paper might have better pr, but the production of paper bags is far more energy costly. And cloth bags are like 20 times more than paper.

I suppose you can use the cloth bags over and over or those fold up ones. I do.

@UpstreamSwimmer

I'm not sure about packaging, but plastic bags are much more environmentally friendly than any other kind. Paper might have better pr, but the production of paper bags is far more energy costly. And cloth bags are like 20 times more than paper.

"Environmentally friendly" isn't just one thing. Thin plastic bags sure they are cheap and low carbon to produce and transport but they use oil, can't be reused that often and there is a problem with disposal, they can't be recycled.

We've been using the same ten bags for life for the last 3 or 4 years, that's probably over 100 weekly shops each.

Oil companies now make more money from plastic - which is part of the processing - than from petrol. That’s the scale of the plastic issue. It never quite breaks down so ends up as micro plastics in water and air. It’s so toxic and we are so casual about using it.

Cucumbers are in plastic because we want them all year. Not when they grow in the summer. We need to buy less food in plastic. That means cutting back on choice. Will people do it? I doubt it

Totally agree with you. I think people want to be able to grab and go and so that means packaging things in a certain way.

Lots of eco toilet paper is wrapped in paper. We use Cheeky Panda. I’m a vegan and try to use eco products where possible. It can be done, you just have to do a bit of research into products you need and what’s available. It’s not all available at Tesco so obviously not as convenient but I think it’s the right thing to do so worth it.

I agree there is far too much packaging (much of it plastic) having just unpacked the shopping.
However, I grew up in the 60s, and well remember my DF complaining that butter was sold in paper, and how awful that was. He would obviously love the plastic tubs that butter (well, mainly margarine), is sold in.
Not so much plastic, but I always find the enormous packaging on men's shirts to be far too much (compared to women's blouses/shirts).

Personally I feel that it's about reducing consumption in general and using what we have for as long as possible. Cotton bag production is considered worse than plastic bag production but everyone owns bags, rucksacks etc. so in that particular case the choice I have in the supermarket is do I take a plastic bag or use something I already own?

YABU. Plastic is much preferred.

I did some environmental/sustainability Chemistry modules at university and one of the exam questions was always comparing two products (e.g. mugs vs polystyrene cups).

You had to think about the where the raw materials came from, how they were produced, transport costs, ongoing costs (e.g. energy to heat water to wash the mugs) etc.

You could get full marks arguing for either.