Can we go back to plastic free packaging?

[speakout]

No sure if this is the right place to post, but I picked up some Andrex toilet rolls the other day a 4 pack, cheaper than normal and wrapped in paper.
Does anyone remember when there was rarely any plastic packaging?
As a child I remember Dairy milk chocolate wrapped in foil and paper. Meat and fish wrapped in greaseproof and brown paper. Milk came in glass bottles. Cardboard cartons, soap wrapped in paper ( shower gel wasn't a thing). Blocks of ice cream came in cardboard boxes- frozen, glass bottles for sauce, vinegar, fruit and veg was sold loose- you took a shopping bag and put things like carrots, turnip directly into your bag. Smaller produce was packed in brown paper bags. . Strawberries and soft fruit were sold in cardboard cartons. Fizzy drinks came in glass returnable bottles. Bread was sold in waxed paper packing.
I rarely remember plastic packaging as a child.

A great first step is to take every scrap of soft plastic back to the shop.

Not an expert, but isn't the focus being on recycling a bit of a red herring too?

I can't remember the exact stats but I'm sure the fishing doc covered it (or maybe it was another one) and we recycle about 50% of our waste in the UK which is pretty high compared to other countries.

The problem is that WE do it, but they used to just sell it to foreign countries, and they've stopped buying it.

So we feel good about putting our green bins out, and we think the Co-Op are amazing for taking our plastic... but the vast majority of it is just being dumped or burned in whatever poor country is still buying it or floating in the sea.

The answer (imo) is the whole system needs a complete overhaul. So 'refillery' type shops where you take a bunch of hard plastic tubs and refill. And those shops are local and they provide local products.

It's completely impractical for most of us... but it seems like the only way of fixing it? And because it's impractical it will probably never happen. I've become quite resigned to the fact the planet is dying and we're past the point of return

A small independent shop in our town has shampoo & conditioner with which you refill your own bottles. The containers are on the floor so it’s a bit of a hassle doing it, but worth it.

Surely Boots and supermarkets could organise refillable shampoo, washing up liquid etc.

Severelysound x post!

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

It should be moving to reusable packaging... taking your tupperware to get your meat, fish etc, mesh bags for fruit, containers for your cereal...

It's a great idea in theory, but there are issues with that too, mostly time, money and car use.

I was in our fairly local farm shop the other day and they had an area with laundry detergent, cleaning stuff, shampoo etc that you can use to refill bottles. It's a great idea and one I've seen elsewhere, but the stuff itself was really expensive and it's yet another place to travel to. It's a 20 minute drive from home and I would have to use the car. I was there for the soft play and won't be going there for a while, but that's a whole other story.

Same issues for our local food shop where you buy dry goods, oils etc by weight. There's no parking, so I've got to drive into town, pay to park and walk to this place. Is that more environmentally friendly than getting it all on my one supermarket delivery? I honestly don't know.

I've been trying to find ways to cut down our plastic use recently. Some are easy, others not so much. I've:

Ordered plastic free loo rolls - they are far better than the supermarket ones and last forever, which is just as well as they are pricey.

Changed to bar soaps - prefer this to liquid, but it's messy and have to clean the sinks more often.

Switched to powder laundry detergent.

Tried vinegar as a fabric conditioner - not convinced yet.

Trying shampoo and conditioner bars. I think I'm on to a loser here. I'd been looking online and then saw some in a craft fair at the weekend. Used them yesterday and it was a huge disappointment. The shampoo left a waxy residue on my hair and the conditioner did nothing. I think the shampoo bar may end it's days as hand soap instead.

One thing I will say from my purchases and research - caring for the environment and going plastic free is a well off person's game. Things are definitely more expensive or they take a lot of time. This seems to be particularly true for things like toiletries and cleaning products. Until these come down in price then environentally aware people on a tight budget will struggle I think. My husband retires in a few years time and I hope things are more affordable by then.

[quote HPandTheNeverEndingBedtime]@heldinadreams DH is completely right, I'm female by the way I hope that makes his insight more credible.

In most cases plastic packaging is the better option, food waste is worse for the environment than plastic packaging. A cucumber lasts 3 days without its plastic and upto 14 days with. Apples stored in an industrial fridge in the UK for eating out of season is worse for the environment than apples shipped in to the UK from New Zealand. Cotton tote bags are worse for the environment than plastic bags.

I'm not saying alternatives are impossible, there's is no reason for some magazines to be covered in a potato starch compost able cover whilst children's ones are covered in plastic. Pasta really doesn't need to be in a plastic bag, I'm more than happy to buy it in a box I don't need to see it. Paper wrap on toilet roll is great but is it covered in a waterproof chemical so can't be recycled whereas the plastic cover can? Don't give a crap toilet roll shipped from China has a huge carbon emission cost compared to Andrex plastic covered paper. The bigger picture is far more complicated than plastic bad, alternatives good.

.[/quote]
Thank you for that post. It's confirmed everything that has been worrying me about my choices. I've been aware that the situation may not be as simple as plastics bad and paper good. It's so time consuming and I'm not sure I would know how to sort good reliable information from the bad. Any sources out there that might help? I don't want the warm glow of saving the planet if what I do isn't actually helping.

@severelysound

On principle yes (although I don't remember the things you mention in your post) 🙈

I switched to a milkman so we could have glass bottles after watching Seaspiracy earlier this year but have sadly just switched back this week because it's been a nightmare.

40% of the time the milk goes off before the twice weekly delivery.
50% of the time it's spilled because animals have gotten into it.
80% of the time the seal is broken because birds have pecked it all to hell.
30% of the time I forget to put the empty glass bottles out the night before (I know, my fault).

I would love to go plastic free and we researched it loads after that (shocking!!!) documentary... but our nearest "refillery" is a four mile walk away. I sold my car at the beginning of lockdown as no commute and trying to do my bit for the planet by walking everywhere and just staying local.

We live in a major city so it's frustrating we don't have a plastic free shop nearer. The first supermarket to go plastic free will get all of my business.

(Side note, was in Sainsbury's the other day and they have an entire wall saying they'll be Carbon Neutral by 2040. I think they have it on the wall as some sort of selling point? But I was honestly shocked!! I'll be 50 before Sainsbury's goes carbon neutral. Kinda depressing to be honest).

I know what you mean! Similar problems here with the milk deliveries. However, I solved the issues by buying one of their insulated milk bottle holders and it's been going strong for years. The milk stays fresher, no one touches it. In the middle of summer (when it gets very hot very early and our front door is east facing) we resort to buy milk from the supermarket as it goes off before we have a chance to pick it up! But that means we use plastic bottles only for a couple of weeks a year. About refilling, the milkman now also refills laundry detergent, hand soap, shampoo etc and our local new M&S has a refill station for pasta, cereals, coffee, tea etc plus some frozen items.

I have to say that I was hung up on plastic packaging and was doing everything I could to reduce our plastic but have just read a book called 'Food and Climate Change' which I bought having heard the author on Woman's Hour.

It was really interesting and somewhat surprising to me that the plastic thing isn't as straightforward as I had assumed. Like pps have said driving 7 miles to my nearest zero waste shop is not actually helpful. Should have been obvious I guess and feel v stupid for having prioritised the wrong things in my efforts to reduce our carbon footprint.

Worth listening to the experts in this field as we get so many mixed messages from the media about what is actually going to make a difference.

I was involved in a small way recently with some tv filming.

We were astounded when the crew rocked up with disposable coffee cups, plastic water bottles wrapped in a large outer of plastic.

We all had our metal reusable water bottles with us. I didn’t think people drank from plastic bottles in that quantity anymore. Especially when the place we were filming at had a full kitchen with perfectly drinkable water from the tap.

So what does make a difference? I genuinely want to know.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Why can't we? I would love it if we did! Old enough to remember strawberries coming in cardboard punnets and paper bags for the unwrapped fruit and veg in supermarkets. But how would the millenials who blame all the boomers for the environment woes manage without their single use coffee cups, water bottles and M&S pots of salad?

I'm Gen X. I love how we re never thrown under the bus. I remember when milk was delivered. Chocolate was definitely in paper/foil.

I've reduced my plastics this year. Shampoo/ conditioner bars. Moisturisers in tins. Bamboo toothbrush, natural loofah even cotton buds without plastic.

Glass bottles aren't the answer. The problem with them is that they weigh a lot more than equivalent plastic products, therefore more energy is needed to transport them. You save on plastic waste but drive emissions up instead. That's before you consider the fact that glass is more expensive, weaker, and more energy intensive to produce.

So what does make a difference? I genuinely want to know.
Population control - we need to trim a few billion people. Not the answer that is popular or could gain political support but the only thing that could make the difference we need.

@Knittingaddict - if it's based purely on reducing your carbon footprint the take away messages that from the book that I mentioned were (with apologies to the author if I have misinterpreted anything) - reducing or cutting out beef, lamb and dairy. Pork, chicken, fish and eggs not quite so bad. There is a hierarchy of foods and there is evidence to support each claim and subsequent advice. Worth a read if you like evidence based stuff (like me). I was surprised that a cheese sandwich was worse in terms of carbon than a ham one for example.

However, be warned that you may get some eye rolling from any teenage DC as you debrief them on dietary changes that you would like to implement!!

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Why can't we? I would love it if we did! Old enough to remember strawberries coming in cardboard punnets and paper bags for the unwrapped fruit and veg in supermarkets. But how would the millenials who blame all the boomers for the environment woes manage without their single use coffee cups, water bottles and M&S pots of salad?

As a member of generation X I'd like to invite you to fuck off with that boomers Vs millennials shit. It serves nothing other than to distract people from the true villains in society. You're here blaming millennials for plastic cups whilst the likes of Jeff Bezos is using billions of pounds worth of resources for his space vanity project.

Besides millennials can't afford to shop in M&S

Paper rots down making methane and creating huge amounts of carbon emissions. Waxed paper can rarely be recycled.

Glass is heavy and requires more carbon emissions through energy to transport.

Not wrapping various foods decreases their shelf life and increases food waste of items that created huge carbon emissions to be transported.

Carbon emissions are the single worst thing for our planet. If plastic was properly disposed of underground and away from the water table it would create no issue whatsoever.

Replacing plastic is not the way to save the planet, ensuring it is properly disposed of underground and not sent to developing countries without infrastructure or technology so they can throw it in a river.

@frauleinschweiger, also after beef, lamb and dairy, the worst emissions culprits are coffee and chocolate. They're worse than pork, chicken or fish.

Oh and in case you only listen to female experts - I'm a woman and I have a PhD in the area.

@Pedalpushers - if I remember rightly Dark Chocolate wasn't terrible!! Will have to go back and check now as that was quite a consolation for me

Also what was emphasised was reducing food waste- in fact that was an enormous contributor. What I found interesting (and rather embarrassing now I come to think about it) was that I hadn't seen the bigger picture. For example I like baking and bake our bread, partly because it's nicer, partly because I enjoy it and also because there are no plastic bread bags involved. Having read the book it is now obvious to me that turning the oven on for an hour to make one loaf of bread is totally counterproductive in term of energy and omissions (even though we do have solar panels for electricity) . It's made me realise that things are not quite so simple even when we have the best intentions.

@frauleinschweiger I hope you're right about the dark chocolate

Yes it's a bloody minefield. The most important thing really is to reduce overall consumption and the obsession with economic growth, which is never going to happen. Individual consumers can do a bit, but we don't create the system.

We need to be able to recycle the plastic, that to me is the main issue as I agree there are lots of other environmental reasons for using plastic which reduces cost/waste in other areas

Is non recyclable card better than plastic I wonder? For example we do get ice cream in cardboard. It’s a block. But our cardboard recycling only accepts clean stuff, so the cardboard goes in landfill. I guess it might decompose a bit quicker. What about the manufacturing process though? I don’t know if it’s better for card or plastic.

I hate the fact that babybels are wrapped in plastic! What's the point of the wax coating if they just put plastic over it? They come in a net with a label so you have all the info anyway, so why can't they just be in the wax? I'm nit going to forget what it is, or mix it up for anything g else because it doesn't have Babybel written all over it!

Milk hasn't stopped being in glass bottles, people have generally moved over to plastic in supermarkets and the preference for cheaper.

There was a focus on developing biodegradable plastics and plastic consuming fungi I think that's the area that could deal with plastic waste. Though it won't slow consumption and global warming. Reducing consumption by a huge amount is the only option now.

Plastic reducing food waste argument - that mostly benefits the supermarkets. They got so big they had to find ways to handle vast amounts of stock.

Also consumers like plastic - it seems ‘cleaner’ so people pick up bags of apples rather than single apples. So we ALL have to make better choices and supermarkets will give more space to loose items.

[quote FrauleinSchweiger]@Knittingaddict - if it's based purely on reducing your carbon footprint the take away messages that from the book that I mentioned were (with apologies to the author if I have misinterpreted anything) - reducing or cutting out beef, lamb and dairy. Pork, chicken, fish and eggs not quite so bad. There is a hierarchy of foods and there is evidence to support each claim and subsequent advice. Worth a read if you like evidence based stuff (like me). I was surprised that a cheese sandwich was worse in terms of carbon than a ham one for example.

However, be warned that you may get some eye rolling from any teenage DC as you debrief them on dietary changes that you would like to implement!! [/quote]
It's not my children that would be eye rolling, it's my husband. And me to some extent.

I've tried milk alternatives and hated every one, butter is the only acceptable spread and I love lamb and beef.

Looks like I will continue to be part of the problem.

I once heard Gen X described as the Switzerland of generations . We're staying out of it, especially now Gen Z have turned on the Millennials.

I think the problem is that we think of "the environment" as a single issue when in fact there are various issues whose solution only intersects at the single point "consume less".

For mass manufactured goods like packaging cost is not a bad proxy for carbon density - at least until China decarbonises its electricity supply. The fact that paper bags are more expensive than plastic ones and a reusable plastic food container costs more than five hundred disposable ones is a rough and ready guide to the CO2 burden they pose. Plastic recycling has been a massive fig leaf for the plastics industry- without enormous investment in Europe it's just going to stack up elsewhere. At least if I throw my plastics into my black non-recycling bin here I know that they won't end up in the sea - they'll be burned and used for power (still far from ideal).

Glass, clean cardboard, steel and above all aluminium are still massive useful to recycle though. The next time you're tempted to throw a coke can in the bin because you can't be bothered to take it home please think of this bauxite mine and consider the energy it took to dig it out of the ground and then literally melt it out of solid rock using electricity.