Can we go back to plastic free packaging?

[speakout]

No sure if this is the right place to post, but I picked up some Andrex toilet rolls the other day a 4 pack, cheaper than normal and wrapped in paper.
Does anyone remember when there was rarely any plastic packaging?
As a child I remember Dairy milk chocolate wrapped in foil and paper. Meat and fish wrapped in greaseproof and brown paper. Milk came in glass bottles. Cardboard cartons, soap wrapped in paper ( shower gel wasn't a thing). Blocks of ice cream came in cardboard boxes- frozen, glass bottles for sauce, vinegar, fruit and veg was sold loose- you took a shopping bag and put things like carrots, turnip directly into your bag. Smaller produce was packed in brown paper bags. . Strawberries and soft fruit were sold in cardboard cartons. Fizzy drinks came in glass returnable bottles. Bread was sold in waxed paper packing.
I rarely remember plastic packaging as a child.

EU has already imposed tax on plastic packaging, so it's possible if there is a will. UK will (slowly) follow....

Surely eliminating more single use plastic IS possible. I have have 2 subscriptions to magazines which come monthly. Last year one swapped the plastic wrapping on the magazine to a totally degradeable one which you can recycle - the other just uses standard plastic. If one can do this then why not others?

On another slightly different point, I am working in a Covid testing facility. We have to change our gloves after EVERY single test, not to mention the tons of waste from plastic aprons, visors, masks, test cartridges, wipes etc. I filled a whole bin in one 6 hour shift today. I know that people will say well it's for your own protection- and I get that of course- but there is definite overkill in saying new PPE every few mins. I'm not working on PCR tests in a hospital, just LFT. I dread to think of the impact of all the extra plastic created by Covid.

user1471428785
I agree. My DD is a nurse working in intensive care. She tells me the amount of single use plastic is astounding- but such a good material for clinical use.
I hope for a state where we can allow for plastic use in such circumstances, but not to wrap bananas in a supermarket.

We have most of the stuff described in the op, so it is possible. But it is a fair amount of effort and more expense. It should be the norm again!

@speakout well he started and runs an energy and environmental consultancy that advises most of the NHS, most UK universities and numbers of other institutions and has a multi-million pound turnover, but I stand corrected and clearly you know better. Thanks.

heldinadream

As I say- good to know we have a man to explain things.
We would get terribly muddled otherwise.

Fuck all to do with him being a man. Obviously.

@speakout

Aroundtheworldin80moves

Yes- and why do cucumbers need a condom?

Oh I thought that was a free gift!

It's true it's a whole system problem. We use a lot of packaging because food is processed and packed on a huge scale (often in protective gas) transported halfway around the world and then portioned out for self service in supermarkets.
Whereas on an old fashioned market stall or greengrocer they/you pick straight from the wholesale box into a paper bag to take home.

I wish we could do better with this. I try but it's so hard to avoid. But it's clearly possible in a lot of things eg porridge comes in cardboard boxes so why can't they all do it? Same for sugar, flour, pasta etc. I wish there were more government restrictions as I can't see the majority of people bothering if non plastic alternatives are more expensive.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Why can't we? I would love it if we did! Old enough to remember strawberries coming in cardboard punnets and paper bags for the unwrapped fruit and veg in supermarkets. But how would the millenials who blame all the boomers for the environment woes manage without their single use coffee cups, water bottles and M&S pots of salad?

Let's not constantly bash millennials ffs.

I'm not constantly bashing millenials. But they have taken up the reins of of this huge issue of the environment. They can put their money where their mouth is.

Guaranteed anyone born in any decade since the 60s or possibly 70s consumes more than their direct ancestors by many hundreds of times.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Why can't we? I would love it if we did! Old enough to remember strawberries coming in cardboard punnets and paper bags for the unwrapped fruit and veg in supermarkets. But how would the millenials who blame all the boomers for the environment woes manage without their single use coffee cups, water bottles and M&S pots of salad?

Oh please stop with this attitude. Throwing millennials together and criticising them is just as bad as people who criticise all ‘boomers’. I’m a millennial and rarely buy takeaway coffee, have a keep cup and can’t afford an M&S salad lunch daily.

FFS Heldinadream was making the point that someone she knows well could provide some insight into how things aren't as simple as they might seem. Would it have been ok if she'd said that it was her sister's area of expertise? Would the argument still stand? It really didn't ever read like one of the mansplaining posts we sometimes see on here.

Am I allowed to say that New Scientist has also posted articles saying that things aren't as simple as going back to paper and cardboard etc? It's why often eg avocados in plastic cases are more expensive than the loose versions... there is less waste in getting them to the supermarket.

The problem is largely to do with the fact that we buy food in big supermarkets where it’s put on the shelves unsupervised for people to pick up. That means we need tamper-proof packaging that can’t be opened and re-sealed. In the olden days the food was behind a counter under the supervision of a shop assistant who weighed it out and wrapped it, so it was difficult to tamper with. To go back to loose paper wrapping we’d also have to go back to small shops with assistants who keep the food out of reach of the public.

A great first step is to take every scrap of soft plastic back to the shop.
We have four bins, landfill, recycling, soft plastic and food scraps (for compost). The landfill hardly needs to be emptied and as there are no food scraps, there is no need for a bin liner.
New step is to avoid buying or accepting plastic. I take bags for loose vege, a shopping bag and shop at the local butcher who puts the meat into home containers.
I’ve also gradually changed the foods I eat. For example, many of the most packaged vegetables are transported a long way so I look for an unwrapped local item.
It’s not a perfect system but if everyone did the same, it would make an amazing difference.
Especially if all customers avoided the long transport, super wrapped foods, this would force shops to look for alternatives.

I’ve often thought that they should have chefs on TV showing you what to cook with seasonal British food, to encourage people to stop buying food from abroad.
Eat seasonal !

A big issue is that consumers say they want to be plastic free but their behaviour/buying choices don't reflect that. Alternatives to plastic don't have better footprints anyway.

@heldinadream

Ok I really, really hate to rain on your thoughts but this is my DH's area of expertise (he's worked in environmental areas for nearly 60 years and is a double physics graduate) and it's important to understand that replacing plastic with paper is NOT some kind of environmental wonderland. You have to factor in a number of things including the pollution and environmental costs of manufacturing and transporting the equivalent protective paper is usually much heavier than its plastic counterpart leading to bigger transportation costs and more lorries on the road etc. These issues, some of which have been developing for nearly a century, do not have simple swapping out solutions. Sorry but there it is.

OP, I didn’t read this as anyone saying oh, a man says…, more someone I happen to be married to (an expert) says, so I’m not sure why you’re being so rude about it.

OP why are you so rude and dismissive to heldinadream? I agree with you that plastic is horrible, but this is a complex issue. Saying the thing about being a man is kind of a cheap shot, and not relevant in this particular instance.

Ah yes, millenial bashing time. Because we all buy takeaway coffee and can't afford houses due to all the avocados we buy.

A lot can be done by the consumer to reduce individual impact. Simple things like separating your refuse to recycle more or reduce your own consumption. It's not perfect, but a start. Using reusable shopping bags is common place now as is not using plastic bags for loose fruit and veg.

We sort our soft plastic waste that can't be recycled at home and take it once a week to our local Co Op where they have a recycling point.

I bought a new bed sheet from M &S and was pleased at the fact it didn't come wrapped in plastic, so some companies have definitely taken note of how they can reduce the use of plastic.

I recently bought a Dyson. It was heavily packaged in cardboard, great as recyclable, but then it was all wrapped in plastic too.
Manufacturers really need to look at what they’re using.

@heldinadreams DH is completely right, I'm female by the way I hope that makes his insight more credible.

In most cases plastic packaging is the better option, food waste is worse for the environment than plastic packaging. A cucumber lasts 3 days without its plastic and upto 14 days with. Apples stored in an industrial fridge in the UK for eating out of season is worse for the environment than apples shipped in to the UK from New Zealand. Cotton tote bags are worse for the environment than plastic bags.

I'm not saying alternatives are impossible, there's is no reason for some magazines to be covered in a potato starch compost able cover whilst children's ones are covered in plastic. Pasta really doesn't need to be in a plastic bag, I'm more than happy to buy it in a box I don't need to see it. Paper wrap on toilet roll is great but is it covered in a waterproof chemical so can't be recycled whereas the plastic cover can? Don't give a crap toilet roll shipped from China has a huge carbon emission cost compared to Andrex plastic covered paper. The bigger picture is far more complicated than plastic bad, alternatives good.

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What gets me is sone manufacturers have worked out how to hold 4 cans of tinned tomatoes together using cardboard, while others use that thick plastic. I only shop online. I'd like to be to able to tell if the packaging is cardboard or not as I'd happily choose them.