to move to NYC?

[geraniem]

We have been offered a move to NYC from london with DH job. he works in tech in a fairly niche/desirable skillset and the rest of his team are based there, so it hasn't come as a surprise, but they are pretty keen for us to go over, and we have been given an "emergency" appt to get visas sorted out. on paper it looks great, we have scrutinised the health insurance which looks excellent (biggest thing for me!), there's a decent relocation grant, first couple months accommodation paid, and DH would have a small salary increase which i suspect is to reflect the cost of living in NYC. also, according to the relocation package i would have a visa enabling me to work over there - i work in corporate admin and have some decent transferable skills. we've both been in london since before we met and we feel we have "done" it, we'd be otherwise looking to move out of our area if not out of london completely. also, people keep telling us how lucky we are and how amazing NYC is!

however. covid is worsening over there, and a lot of things about the US bother me (politics, healthcare, racism, gun laws etc). NYC looks mega expensive even compared to london prices, particularly rent. also -- we finally have a decent house deposit saved to buy our first home, a lot of family live within 2 hours drive/train of us, and dd is happy at school with friends she's known since babyhood. i've been at my company for a few years and am comfortable with the work and pay plus i can now work from home as much as i want, and i'm also just slightly anxious about starting over in a new country as an adult. i studied in the US for a couple of months when i was younger and we have some friends and family in different places over there, but otherwise our only experience is holidays, and it just feels huge and daunting. DH is super excited but i'm the pragmatic one. also, i lived abroad on another continent as a kid and look back on it with fond memories, though we returned to the uk permanently when i was about 9 and i do remember it feeling a bit strange not knowing all the cultural references etc (this was pre netflix/internet!). i settled in, but i never really felt like i "fit in" until probably university, though that could have been entirely my fault!

would you do it? we would be looking at early spring next year, so not during the tough (covid) winter.

any thoughts from anyone who has lived in NYC/the US, any americans, british expats, anyone really!? i don't want to rain on DH parade at all but its getting "real" now and i honestly dont want to be over influenced by people i know, who just love NYC from having had a great holiday there!

I'm probably a lone voice saying no! Mainly because of how close you are to buying a place, the DC being settled with friends, the "small" salary increase and the horrible culture shock I experienced when I lived abroad for a year. Never thought I'd cry over Cadbury's chocolate...

Are you planning to have another DC? There's no way I'd have a baby in the US! It costs a fortune and then no maternity leave!

I moved from London to NYC ten years ago.

Culturally, I initially thought I didn't fit in but NYC is so full of people from all over US and the world, I realised very few people do.

If your husband has an L1 visa you will have L2 which does entitle you to work, but you still have to apply for a work permit so it won't be instant. Bear in mind that the L1 visa ties you to that one company. Check what would happen if he ever lost his job.

There are all kinds of tax implications to everything you do - lots (millions) of people live in New Jersey or Connecticut and work in New York, it doesn't mean you will pay more tax necessarily you will just have to file more tax returns. My husband travels for work quite a bit and ends up paying tiny amounts of tax in several states.

It's been great fun but living in Manhattan is MASSIVELY expensive.
If I were choosing again, I would live in the Westchester suburbs and commute. The public school system is straightforward and well funded and the commute is manageable. We have a lot of friends living in Jersey City and the commute always seems a lot more complicated than it's supposed to be. Public schools in NYC are very variable, there are excellent ones but it's a lot to navigate. Private costs $50,000/year at least.

Covid in the US is worsening but it's very regional. NY state has fewer cases than the UK by quite a bit and it doesn't feel scary here. New York Times website has excellent resources for more info.

Overall, it's an adventure but there are definitely risks. My children love it but they also still identify strongly as British and are thinking about returning to the UK for university.

feel free to PM me if you want any specific questions answered.

It’s eye wateringly expensive. I got used to paying the equivalent of about £6 for a packet of butter for example.
I think we went at the wrong time too. I love hot weather but the humidity and heat in August was something else. There is air con everywhere but I still found it stiffling.

The school system also put me off.

All I’m saying is do your research. To many it seems like an absolute dream living in NYC. The reality can be different.

NJ has some of the best state schools -- something to consider.

I'm an American who's lived in London for 7 years. Not from NY but east coast. I'd say it depends what you enjoy doing in your spare time and what your husband's salary will be. Where do you live in London and what do you enjoy about it? Have you looked at what you could afford to rent - that may make you feel strongly one way or the other.

You mention racism - I believe it's much worse in the US. My husband is mixed race and felt very uncomfortable in the US. There is much more inequality as well.

We just moved back to the UK from West Coast - I know the prices are similar and they are massively expensive over there - everything costs a fortune

To give you an idea, when we moved back to the UK, my H retained his job but was put on the UK equivalent, which was about a 40% decrease

We did this move 12 years ago under pretty similar circumstances.
First point- please ignore anyone who says I wouldn't move there bc of the laws, guns, politics etc. Please point me to a place in the UK which has no issues and where your political viewpoints are 100% aligned with the way the place is run. Rant over !
Things to think about
Schools- private is expensive. Public is hard to get into and the catchments for the good ones in Manhattan are expensive to live in. Consider after school care which is also expensive. Many public schools don't offer it so you could be looking at nannies etc.
Your work- depending on your visa you may find you are rejected for work out of hand due to the process and cost of hiring a non citizen. I came on a green card so no cost to companies and still haf to take a step back in my career due to the number of people looking for work. Recruiters tend to gravitate towards resumes where they recognize the company. Worked out in the end bc I earn about 50% more than in the UK but I had to sacrifice to get here and it took 6 years
Don't be fooled that living outside Manhattan will be cheaper. Good commutable communities can be almost as expensive partic when you add in the double taxation (that's why they named it twice!) Travel etc
If I went back would I move here again? For certain. It's given me a great lifestyle including a beautiful house upstate in the mountains, I have a job I love and am valued at, some amazing friends and we've seen some really interesting places and meet some great people but it was hard initially. If you have been here before, forget everything you saw and did. Being a tourist is totally different to living here and it's how that would work for you that you need to think about.

Useful site: www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=London&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY

I’m actually hugely envious of your position!

I’d be inclined to get your DH to negotiate on the ‘small’ increase given COL so much higher. If they want him there - why not go for a higher increase? Would help mitigate the cost of living and/or help you get a better place to live.

But I’d find it hugely exciting.

Put it this way, if it doesn’t work out you can move back in a couple of years. If you don’t do it, you might always wonder ‘what if’

@gwenneh - native NYer here - it's not correct to say that 'US schools are' one way or another - there is no national curriculum in the US. NYC sets its own curriculum and then other counties set their own, sometimes entire states follow a state curriculum - it just depends on where you live.

Schooling in NYC starts with kindergarten, which is the American version of reception, and just as in the UK, it starts with four year olds rising to five. The cut-off point is 1 January, so the July and August children don't have a disadvantage, although the November and December ones may. However there is much more flexibility in much of the US around when your child starts school. If your four year old doesn't seem ready to you, it is often an option to wait a year.

Not paying school fees shouldn't be a dealbreaker at all. NYC private schools cost $60,000 per year for reception and up, and will expect a donation as well in the five figures. If your company pays the fees on your behalf, you have to pay taxes as if you received this as cash, so unless OP's husband's pay packet is enormous, school fees may cost a lot of money in the long run. And some people do receive a tax gross-up as part of their pay packet to cover this.

NYC has some excellent school districts and also many different options for children who are gifted or have specific talents. It's worth OP doing the research. There are some excellent schools in NJ as well. It has been interesting to note that as private schools got so expensive, a lot of clever parents moved their children into the state system and got involved in really pushing local governments and school boards to improve things.

OP - do not fear NYC and the surrounding areas - you could have a lovely time!

I would go for it. You'll still have your house deposit (which you can add to) and if you like the US and can get residency you can get somewhere palatial in a cheaper state later on.

You say he gets a small increase in salary but will his tax decrease at all? Have you worked out the difference in take home?

I would just do it. You're renting now it sounds like so surely if you hate it you can come back after a year or two and never wonder what if?

Two things to consider.

1. do you plan on more children? If so can you cope with the practically non existent maternity leave. Does the health insurance cover pregnancy and new baby well?

2. how much holiday will DH get? American companies are known for having very little paid leave which could make trips home harder. Sometimes they will negotiate for UK levels of leave if they want him.

Your DH needs to play hardball with the salary offer - Americans do, he needs to think and act like his US colleagues and not a Brit. US salaries tend to be higher than UK equivalents anyway in tech, and add NYC cost of living on top then he needs a large salary increase. He needs to push HR to have a salary that matches his colleagues.

There are all sorts of other things he should be negotiating - I got annual flights home to keep in touch with family & 5 days leave a year to do so, flights and relocation home if the company decides they no longer need his services. There's a very useful British Expat website where the forum users will be able to give some up to date things he needs to ask for.

Living in the USA is a great experience but it is expensive.
I would be looking at at least a 50% increase in salary to cover the costs.

You also need to carefully check that you can afford housing in a decent school district.

We did this for a few years. We ended up living in Westchester rather than the city as it was basically impossible to find a place with space for children plus spare rooms for visiting grandparents in the city.

Some quick thoughts -

Does the relocation include repatriation OH loses his job? This is especially important if he is on a local contract because he will be employed at will - I.e. they can let him go with no notice for any reason. The visa will likely be dependent on his employment so you would then have to leave the country. We saw this happen a few times to people there.

Agree with others that costs are eye watering. Food and utilities are particularly bad. I would want a big increase in salary, not a small one.

US tax returns are an absolute misery. You will want to make sure work is providing you a very good accountant to help.

Can work arrange a weekend for you to go over and look around? Especially helpful if they can arrange a day for you to spend with a realtor to see some neighbourhoods, apartments etc. Obviously tricky with everything going on but I am not sure what your timings are like.

We moved to upstate NY in April. I’m just running out now, but will come back later with what will hopefully be helpful thoughts.

The "small increase" concerns me. Generally salaries in IT in the US are a lot higher (this makes the COL difference less significant). We're Brits in the USA (I'm a dual citizen by birth) and I would never move here on a UK salary. DH works in IT so I have some experience of the salaries.

If you can get the offer up it could be good fun and really NJ isn't that awful. Hoboken and Jersey City are hip these days.

Also, in NYC proper, while school officially starts in kindergarten (cutoff in NYC is Dec. 31st), the current mayor has funded UPK for 4 year olds and they are now rolling out 3K for the year before that. Some suburbs have UPK (aka PK) programs but not all.

I would jump at it

I didn’t enjoy NY at all when we visited. Different if you like it there.

Good luck.

@Stillfunny

Dont go to NJ. That is like going to live in London but ending up in Nothampton.! There is lower sales tax in NJ , so it is OK for a shopping trip. If you live near his work or in the city , dont even bother with a car .If you want one, hire it. There are also lots of free stuff to do in NYC .

It really isn't like that at all... We lived in NJ, Paulus Hook. 30s walk to ferry port or PATH terminal. Ferry is a stunning 8 minute commute and you are in Manhattan. You get to see that stunning skyline every day! It never stopped being breathtaking.

I recommend Paulus Hook - after the buzz of Manhattan it was really lovely to come home to somewhere a bit quieter, but still has lots of trendy, friendly eating and drinking places. Quite family orientated too for your DD. We could afford a large 1 bed with balcony overlooking the Hudson in JC for the price of a crappy Manhattan studio.

Do it OP - We did it for a year, wish we had stayed longer but glad we left before it lost its charm. It is the most wonderful city.

@Whattodoaboutnothing

And if you care about racism. Forget it. Sorry.

I keep seeing this as a reason no one should live in the US, and as someone who has lived in both, people in the UK are often very ignorant of the racism there, or pat themselves on the back about how much better it is. All you need to do is pick up a copy of the Daily Mail to see that it's not exactly paradise in the UK.

There are specific things about Northern racism (northern and southern racism in the US are not the same) that I really despise. Northerners tend to cloak it in classism. At the same time there are also a lot of people here working to change things. If you care, the US can also be a very exciting place to be.