To ask if you think ben wallace has done a bad job?

[Needapoodle]

Loads of people on social media calling for Ben's (defence secretary) resignation over pen farthing and his operation ark.

I think ben and his department have suddenly been thrust into a highly volatile and constantly changing dangerous situation in which he has to make decisions for the good of the most amount of people possible. I also think that the insistence on evacuating hundreds of animals will undoubtedly have taken resources away from getting people out of Afghanistan and prevented human lives from being saved. I don't think that calling for ben's resignation over some animals not being able to be evacuated is reasonable at all. Or have i missed something?

It will not help the poor people in Afghanistan though, left there because our government acted too late.

So what would you have done differently, and when?

In the light of what you have seen would you agree there needs to be an increase in defence spending to facilitate an increase in the UKs Military Airlift capability?

So what would you have done differently, and when?

They’ve had months to act. That’s the UK and US. If reports are to be believe, senior military people were ignored. That’s on Biden and Johnson. I have friends in America, voted for Biden, campaigned for him, but they and many know he’s messed up the withdrawal. It should have been slower, he should have secured key areas, he should have hot people out before troop withdrawal.

In the light of what you have seen would you agree there needs to be an increase in defence spending to facilitate an increase in the UKs Military Airlift capability?

Unfortunately, yes. But we all know how the Torys like their cuts. Will they change their minds over planned cuts to military by 2025, i despair if they don’t.

Political side I’d agree the timing was wrong though there’s an argument it needed to be earlier, not later..

As far as the Air Transport Fleet is involved I’d agree, but FWIW that then feeds into continued or increased need for more funding for the likes of the Paras who provided force protection on the ground in Kabul…the capability doesn’t come cheap.

Just a reminder that as mentioned upthread the UK side of this operation wrapped up tonight without a single UK fatality.

There were British fatalities and a British child is missing. They are brown though so no major outrage.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mohammad-niazi-british-death-afghanistan-kabul-b1910453.html%3famp

There were British fatalities and a British child is missing. They are brown though so no major outrage.

Indeed. Shameful.

RAF AIrlift capability has been massively improved in recent years with Atlas, Voyager, Globemaster and new Hercules replacing a motley collection of second-hand ex-BA Tristars and VC10s.

The real question is when do we stop sucking up to the USA and develop our own global defence and security policy.

@Jaysmith71

RAF AIrlift capability has been massively improved in recent years with Atlas, Voyager, Globemaster and new Hercules replacing a motley collection of second-hand ex-BA Tristars and VC10s.

The real question is when do we stop sucking up to the USA and develop our own global defence and security policy.

Problem is the US keeps reminding us (Europe) who rules the roost. They dabble in Middle East and Asia with their politics of chaos, then pull back and watch as Europe and neighbouring countries have to pick up the pieces. Which they'd have to do even if they didn't participate in military operations. NATO is a vehicle to their ambitions and isn't designed to function without American leadership.

Not even the Soviets demanded that other members of the Warsaw Pact join in their military campaigns.

Yes, he's done a shocking job.

He blocked Pen's original flight.

Had he NOT done that, all the Nowzad staff plus any extras with the correct paperwork would have been on the charter flight out of there DAYS earlier.

That would have been before Biden changed the paperwork requirements which have meant Nowzad staff and others are stuck there.

He created a problem that didn't need to happen, and thats just the most recent of disasters frankly.

The whole thing has been a shitshow and Pen and Nowzad have been used to distract people from spotting who is really to blame for that!

"Not even the Soviets demanded that other members of the Warsaw Pact join in their military campaigns."

Oh gosh. How old are you?

Prague Spring 1968?

Where is your outrage at Raab, who refused to answer his phone meaning that Defence had to pick up calls from the Foreign Office?

Politicians and senior advisors messed this up. The only reason the military had to get involved at all with Operation Ark, beyond pre-flight paperwork and security checks they were doing for all flights, is because a succession of delays and changes of decision meant that the Nowzad staff weren't able to make their final escape self-reliant. Prior to that they had everything set up to get themselves to and through the airport.

@Jaysmith71

"Not even the Soviets demanded that other members of the Warsaw Pact join in their military campaigns."

Oh gosh. How old are you?

Prague Spring 1968?

Well OK, though some of the Warsaw Pact condemned it and refused to participate. It was also the only joint military action by the Pact - Soviets did their own campaigns in Afghanistan, Eritrea, Vietnam, China etc.

@EsmaCannonball

Politicians and senior advisors messed this up. The only reason the military had to get involved at all with Operation Ark, beyond pre-flight paperwork and security checks they were doing for all flights, is because a succession of delays and changes of decision meant that the Nowzad staff weren't able to make their final escape self-reliant. Prior to that they had everything set up to get themselves to and through the airport.

This. I read Ben Wallace's tweets on the day he'd told Pen to take his staff, their families and the animals to the airport. Wallace got them out there, and then started his smear campaign before they'd even been allowed into the airport.

Pen's convoy was left out there for over 10 hours, and when they finally did get in, his staff were refused passage because the Americans had changed the rules for Visas 2 hours previously (whilst they were all outside, waiting to be allowed in).

Pen's team were planning to do everything themselves, apart from the processing bit. I'm still trying to find out whether anyone else was allowed on that plane. Pen offered those seats to anyone who was eligible, so if no one was allowed to take them, that would be yet another shitty move on the MOD/UK govt's part.

Worse, as far as I can tell, Charlotte (the American lady who runs the Kabul Small Animal Rescue) is still stuck in the airport. Taleban have asked her twice to leave. The Americans seem to be a bit more supportive of her than the UK govt has been of Pen and his team, though. They have a plane on the way to get her and the dogs. twitter.com/TommyAmenta/status/1431958569633685506

Some good news. Pen has landed in the UK. All animals have been assessed by a vet and are doing well. 😊

There were British fatalities and a British child is missing. They are brown though so no major outrage.

Poor phraseology on my part..AFAIK there were no British fatalities in the part of the operation they controlled.

I think many were worried about either incidents/accidents involving aircraft or on the airfield due to hostile acts…

it is indeed a tragedy that there were British casualties outside the airport due to the actions of it seems terrorist groups…that matters very much.

@WiddlinDiddlin

Yes, he's done a shocking job.

He blocked Pen's original flight.

Had he NOT done that, all the Nowzad staff plus any extras with the correct paperwork would have been on the charter flight out of there DAYS earlier.

That would have been before Biden changed the paperwork requirements which have meant Nowzad staff and others are stuck there.

He created a problem that didn't need to happen, and thats just the most recent of disasters frankly.

The whole thing has been a shitshow and Pen and Nowzad have been used to distract people from spotting who is really to blame for that!

1. Had Pen just taken his staff on the military flight they were offered, they would most likely have gotten out. His staff did not need to wait for a chartered plane, that was solely to benefit the animals.

Yes, unfortunately the animals would have been left behind. Instead of this option, Pen chose to charter a flight specially for the animals, delaying his staff's departure as part of the negotiation (we won't leave without the animals), and as a result of the delay the staff were left behind. His gamble didn't pay off. That was a clear risk in his strategy as the government even told him they will not process his animals ahead of other humans in the queue, thus it could take time. he would also have been aware, as a marine with experience on the battlefield, that the airfield was at risk of bombing and the situation could change at any time, thus any delay in evacuating his staff, even if nobly trying to save the cats and dogs, meant there was a chance they could not leave, he took that chance and as a result he left his staff behind.

If you empathise with Pen's mission to evacuate the rescue cats and dogs, surely you can empathise with the people who were on a mission to rescue children, relatives and colleagues who had been threatened with execution, who are upset that somehow and for whatever reason, the military had time to support cats and dogs getting safe passage to the airport and load them onto a plane, whilst you friend, child or parent was told the military didn't have time to evacuate them?

The fact is overall cats and dogs were evacuated. Humans threatened with execution and torture were left behind. Is that morally right? Should we have waited until all at risk British citizens (at least) were evacuated before even giving a second thought to admitting cats and dogs through security? What about children, should the trucks carried his cats and dogs on instead been used to pick up the British citizens trapped in Afghanistan? Could the time the military spent loading cats and dogs onto the plane have been better spent getting even one person extra through the crowds at the gates and onto a plane?

Ultimately, we have evacuated cats and dogs, we have left children behind. Try to justify it any way you can, but I have not heard from one person on the ground in Kabul or directly involved in the evacuation (military, diplomat, minister, soldiers trying to evacuate their colleagues, MPS trying to help stranded British citizens stranded in Kabul) come out in support of the animal evacuation.

@Tele12345

Ultimately, we have evacuated cats and dogs, we have left children behind. Try to justify it any way you can, but I have not heard from one person on the ground in Kabul or directly involved in the evacuation (military, diplomat, minister, soldiers trying to evacuate their colleagues, MPS trying to help stranded British citizens stranded in Kabul) come out in support of the animal evacuation.

Meanwhile, this guy is stranded, along with his 50 female staff

Not Pen's fault, but it leaves a slightly bitter taste that animals have been flown out when other former soldiers have been left behind

BuckarooWithBruceGrobelaar

I’m aware of Bens case. Another one saying the Foreign Office messed up his paperwork.

IAmSuperman I only read about him last night. It's awful

@Tele12345 1. Had Pen just taken his staff on the military flight they were offered, they would most likely have gotten out. His staff did not need to wait for a chartered plane, that was solely to benefit the animals.

They didn't need an RAF flight, because they had a chartered flight. Those service animals were going in the hold, with NOWZAD staff and their families in the seat, and the 130ish other seats offered to whoever was eligible to take them.

I'm guessing that Wallace didn't like being shown up for the contemptuous Tory he really is by someone who'd organised a humanitarian flight.

Do also remember that NOWZAD were kept waiting outside that airport for over 10 hours, despite Wallace specifically telling them to go for processing. When they were finally allowed in, it turned out that changes to visa requirements 2 hours earlier (whilst they were stuck outside, waiting to be allowed in) meant that NOWZAD staff were refused safe passage, and had to leave.

Are you actually suggesting that they would have been allowed onto a military flight, despite the fact they were refused access because of changes to visa rules? If so, you'd better tell the Americans that you're right and they're wrong, and should allow all those Afghans outside safe passage. Go on....

What could Wallace have done about them being left waiting outside of the airport?

I only read about him last night. It's awful

It really is. Poor man and the women he’s trying to get out. He believes the government wanted him to fail at meeting deadline to give details of all his staff as the foreign office only have him 1 hour. He did meet the deadline and then they appear to have said ‘sorry, no chance’. Not good enough by the Ben Wallace and his department again. I’m sure we’ll here all too similar stories from others. The government have made many mistakes.

@BuckarooWithBruceGrobelaar: You do realise that Pen's plane had capacity for 130 people on it, and he offered those seats to whoever was eligible?

It's not his fault that this UK govt is vindictive and incompetent, and doesn't GAF.