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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That New Zealand's strategy has failed

999 replies

JudesBiggestFan · 22/08/2021 23:21

And they will have to start the long and painful process of learning to live with Covid? I spoke to my friend in NZ earlier and he was in shock at being back in lockdown. He said they really felt they'd defeated the virus and this has just come out of nowhere. I feel for him but an airborne virus...it can't be stopped. And the cost of trying is too high. Or do they still have a chance of beating the virus?

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CheekyHobson · 28/08/2021 22:29

What on earth did I just read?

She's pre-empting the posters who will inevitably claim that HK's containment success is due to its citizens "accepting a draconian level of governance that we in the West would never accept" – with the implication that this is somehow due to a 'passive' Asian character compared to the 'proactive' European character.

Of course, these same posters conveniently forget recent examples of Asian revolt against draconian regimes such as the HK riots... as well, I should add as historic examples of Western compliance with draconian regimes that I'm sure don't need spelling out.

PicsInRed · 28/08/2021 22:39

@CheekyHobson

What on earth did I just read?

She's pre-empting the posters who will inevitably claim that HK's containment success is due to its citizens "accepting a draconian level of governance that we in the West would never accept" – with the implication that this is somehow due to a 'passive' Asian character compared to the 'proactive' European character.

Of course, these same posters conveniently forget recent examples of Asian revolt against draconian regimes such as the HK riots... as well, I should add as historic examples of Western compliance with draconian regimes that I'm sure don't need spelling out.

Why on earth would anyone suggest such a thing? HK was quite literally fighting China in their own streets for freedom up until covid lockdown. It was worldwide wall to wall news. Hmm
disco123 · 28/08/2021 23:03

That's really interesting, @Emilyontmoor - are you in Hong Kong? Hopefully every country will include those kind of early measures in their future pandemic planning.

CheekyHobson · 28/08/2021 23:08

Why on earth would anyone suggest such a thing? HK was quite literally fighting China in their own streets for freedom up until covid lockdown. It was worldwide wall to wall news.

You might not personally suggest such a thing but I've seen people suggest variations of it numerous times. There's an implication that if an Asian country successfully manages the virus, it's because the government is some kind of totalitarian regime with a sheep-like population who don't know what's best for them.

Even in this thread there have been suggestions that New Zealand is 'becoming like China' because the population still currently prefers a hard-lockdown-and-quash-transmission strategy over the Swedish style stay-home-if-you're-vulnerable-while-everyone-else-washes-their-hands-and-lives-with-it strategy.

Gennz18 · 28/08/2021 23:19

The talk to of “level 5” does concern me @PicsInRed

How does it get stricter than this? Italian style lockdown where you need a permit to go to the shops? Wuhan style literally locked in your house? I’m already a bit Hmm at some of the police overreach i’ve see - the other day there was a mum at the park with her 2 boys aged maybe 8 &10 (everyone was totally spaced out) - the boys were kicking a ball around to each other and the police told them to stop or it would be confiscated. WTF

Gennz18 · 28/08/2021 23:25

Step up I agree that vaccination won’t achieve zero Covid (I don’t think anyone thinks that) and this lockdown looks increasingly unlikely to.

Auckland is going to be in lockdown for another 4 weeks minimum I reckon. We should use that time to divert all vaccine supply to Auckland and get the population to

Gennz18 · 28/08/2021 23:27

By which I mean >80% vaxxed. Was never that flash at maths 😂

PicsInRed · 28/08/2021 23:40

the other day there was a mum at the park with her 2 boys aged maybe 8 &10 (everyone was totally spaced out) - the boys were kicking a ball around to each other and the police told them to stop or it would be confiscated. WTF

I'm having flashbacks to the UK in March and April 2020. shudder

www.thesun.co.uk/news/11249557/coronavirus-cops-not-holiday-lockdown-sunbathers-london/

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-new-police-guidelines-on-reasonable-excuses-for-leaving-home-including-cooling-off-after-a-row-11974322

TomPinch · 28/08/2021 23:56

Yes, the simple reality is that the Asian countries have handled outbreaks much better than any European country, and it's just plain wrong to say it be was because of heavy-handed government. In fact, the big exception is China to the most heavy handed of the lot, who let it get out of control in the first place.

I expect to get slammed for this, but I was left surprised at the UK reaction to lockdown there compared to here. There was a lot of: surely I can still do this, it doesn't matter if I quickly do that; such and such saw so and so, so I think I can too, I'll just be a little bit careful, exceptions to the right, exceptions to the left. And most notoriously you had senior government officials meeting in person despite covid exposure, and driving half way up the country, taking the virus with them because they were So Important. No ramifications, from the government or the public. And this from a country that prides itself in its ability to respond to a crisis with unity and resolve.

Here, instead, people really did just stay home. There wasn't any quibbling. We had the health minister who drove to a large open space and went for a cycle ride. No one around, but still a breach of the rules. He apologised and was only kept in his job to avoid disruption mid-pandemic. He didn't give a press conference to justify his behaviour - in person FFS - and he didn't have anyone defending him.

It's true that it's easier to contain the virus in NZ due to low population densities - I don't agree with earlier comments to the contrary, but Asian countries with much higher densities also did better than Western ones.

StartupRepair · 29/08/2021 00:15

Much of Asia had had recent relevant experience of SARS in the early 2000s. They spotted what was happening and had a plan while the UK was bleating about the importance of half term ski trips.

TomPinch · 29/08/2021 00:32

[quote PicsInRed]Here, instead, people really did just stay home.

Do they though?

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-woman-injured-in-accident-50-mountain-bikers-on-queenstown-trails/HVJRMIXBQWSS6GS6A23FZFGDMI/

www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-delta-outbreak-police-catch-jet-boating-men-from-different-bubbles/4TGWLK2OTFTKT6Q4ZKWVZ3PHCQ/

i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126119069/covid19-police-receive-nearly-700-reports-of-lockdown-breaches?rm=a[/quote]
I already said the health minister broke the rules so I'm not sure what your point is.

Of course there were people who broke the rules. There always will be. During the first lockdown one of the gangs had a gigantic tangi. Also there were the BLM demonstrations right at the very end. But they didn't ultimately matter because the overwhelming majority of people were doing at least what the rules required when it mattered.

That Cummings incident - I know I keep mentioning it - was just such an utter insult to every person in the UK who was trying. Such arrogant behaviour. And yet the collective response was a shrug.

PicsInRed · 29/08/2021 00:48

I already said the health minister broke the rules so I'm not sure what your point is

Wait...was the health minister one of the jet boaters or cyclists? Have I missed something? Surely he couldn't be that mad.

TomPinch · 29/08/2021 00:51

@PicsInRed

I already said the health minister broke the rules so I'm not sure what your point is

Wait...was the health minister one of the jet boaters or cyclists? Have I missed something? Surely he couldn't be that mad.

No he wasn't.
disco123 · 29/08/2021 01:06

I don't think the general response to Cummings was a shrug though. People were furious, but Boris thought he could get away with not sacking him. It certainly depleted people's determination to stick to the rules though.

gofg · 29/08/2021 01:47

There are all sorts of reasons why people located in Auckland in a Tuesday evening might consider their home out of Auckland their home base, and wish to get back there for an indefinite lockdown.

Yes, and most of them are selfish reasons.

CheekyHobson · 29/08/2021 01:51

Do they though?

I think the point is that overall compliance in NZ has been remarkably high and strict – helped by the extremely clear messaging from the government and the fact that within a week or two case numbers have shown that previous lockdowns would have an end in sight – not that there have been no instances of rule-breaking whatsoever.

In contrast, judging by the conversations on Mumsnet over the last 12 months, it seems like there was widespread moderate fudging of the rules in the UK, which again is not hard to understand, given the messy messaging from the government and length of the 'lockdowns', with inevitable fatigue setting in.

Gennz18 · 29/08/2021 02:01

How on earth could you possibly know that? Our neighbours at our bach (which we did not flee to for avoidance of doubt!) work in Auckland but their home is at our seaside town a couple of hours out of AK. They head up to the city on Tuesday morning and go back to the beach on Thursday night. A friend of mine does something similar but his home is in HB. With WFH becoming more the norm especially after last lockdown there are loads of people in the same boat. It’s not selfish to get “home” for an indeterminate lockdown (that looks like it will go on for over a month at a minimum)

CheekyHobson · 29/08/2021 02:14

There are all sorts of reasons why people located in Auckland in a Tuesday evening might consider their home out of Auckland their home base, and wish to get back there for an indefinite lockdown.

I can only think of two legitimate reasons:

  • They normally live in Northland and maintain a second residence in Auckland, where they were when lockdown was announced
  • They had been staying at their holiday house for most of the time prior to lockdown and had just returned to their Auckland home when lockdown was announced, so considered their exposure period to be local to Northland, rather than Auckland.

Would love to hear some of the other 'all sorts of reasons'.

Gennz18 · 29/08/2021 02:17

@CheekyHobsonThe two examples I listed above?

The stay-home order (#9) requires people to stay at their current place of residence from the time the order comes into force - people are perfectly entitled to choose where that might be prior to the order coming into force.

The narky curtain-twitching of some people in the community over lockdown is really annoying. “Be kind” 🤪

Gennz18 · 29/08/2021 02:19

“If we need to tighten up restrictions we will” just now @PicsInRed 😩

CheekyHobson · 29/08/2021 02:32

two examples I listed above?

So the reason for both of those examples is 'I normally live outside Auckland but happened to be in Auckland on the eve of lockdown, so went home'. That's one reason.

Another reason might be 'I have spent most of the time when the virus has been circulating in Auckland at my holiday home outside of Auckland, so my risk profile is more like that of a non-Aucklander'. That's two reasons.

You said there were all sorts of reasons. I'm interested in what other reasons you meant. It seems to me like trying to avoid acknowledging that through the various lockdowns quite a lot of Aucklanders made a run for their bach for no reason other than that they found it a more pleasant place to spend lockdown, despite the risk of spreading the virus. I definitely know people who did that, and I think it's a dick move.

Gennz18 · 29/08/2021 02:43

Not really @CheekyHobson both the examples I mentioned have homes in Auckland they could’ve stayed at. They are basically 50/50 in each location normally

CheekyHobson · 29/08/2021 02:55

Not really @CheekyHobson both the examples I mentioned have homes in Auckland they could’ve stayed at. They are basically 50/50 in each location normally

They probably should have stayed in their Auckland home then, as they risked carrying the virus to towns where it wasn't known to be present. They actually had 48 hours in total to get 'home' if they changed their mind later and only live a couple of hours away.

Either way, I think realistically the number of people who fit this unusual category of 'left Auckland because they have two legitimately equal residences' would be small compared to 'left Auckland because it'll be nicer to spend lockdown at the beach house', don't you??

pollyglot · 29/08/2021 03:03

Gennz18 Perhaps you didn't see the procession of 4x4s, boats, caravans and jetskis on the main road north? Even just the enormous increase in the normal traffic volume? Sure, lockdown started at 11.59, but who could defend that obvious flouting of the spirit of the law?

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