To think we need to start building upwards instead of expanding outwards.

[SeoultoSeoul]

I'm not talking about a return to hideous 60s housing blocks, but surely it would be more space effective to build some decent mid rise apartment blocks rather than continuing to destroy habitat and farmland by building new estates everywhere.

I'm lucky enough to live in a family sized house at the moment (there are 5 of us in it) but DH and I will downsize to a flat once the DC move on.

people want gardens though

particularly like you when they have a family. my mum would like to downsize but she wants a small house with off street parking.

We need to build the outside facilities to go with them though, it's no good making people live in apartments with no outside space if there isn't plenty of parks, affordable leisure centres etc to use.

We'd also need to break the stigma of the grim council tower blocks, the urine filled stairwells and broken lifts.

It's not just building these places and filling them with people it's maintaining them and trying to create a community within them.

You are completely right, but apartment owners in the UK have been screwed over so badly in the last couple of years that you’d be forgiven for thinking it was a deliberate government policy. Left holding the bill for unsafe building work that could be blamed on either corner-cutting construction firms or confused and inconsistent regulations, but definitely not on the poor bastard who did exactly as they were encouraged to do and bought a home. And then ordered not to go out for months at a time, often without the benefit of any private outdoor space.
There are also significant issues with the way leasehold properties are owned, that can leave leaseholders at the mercy of greedy and uninterested freeholders.
We do need to encourage more people to live in flats, but the way to do that is to build apartments that people want to live in- with decent-sized rooms and balconies, and enough bedrooms for families. And to reform property ownership laws so that leaseholders have more control and are protected from unscrupulous freeholders.

I don’t think people will be rushing to buy flats without gardens after Covid lockdowns. Developers will build what sells, whilst doing the minimum they need to do to meet planning requirements. This will include an amount of “affordable” housing, potentially flats (I realise that your point is about land take, not affordability, and that “affordability” is often debatable). So to force developers to build flats, there needs to be a change in planning policy and law. As proposed land use is set out in long term Local Development Frameworks it would take a decades for any policy changes to be realised. But I do agree in principle! But in terms of reducing the demand on resources, natural and otherwise, it could be argued that people should but have more than 1 or 2 children. Any policy that starts constraining people’s freedoms of how to live, starts nudging social engineering.

But in terms of reducing the demand on resources, natural and otherwise, it could be argued that people should but have more than 1 or 2 children

People in the UK don't have more than 2 dc though.

Apartments are not popular at the moment. Between covid lockdowns with no outdoor space, the cladding scandal and Grenfell, and other incidents like the recent collapse of that block in Florida, people are understandably wary. Additionally, flats tend to be leasehold, not freehold, meaning they come with additional ground rent and service charge costs on top of already high house prices and mortgage costs, and the longer you hold the flat the shorter the lease gets, which makes them more and more unattractive when you want to sell.

I don't disagree with your general point, but the answer is not to keep building up everywhere. We need to maximise the efficiency of our current housing stock, a surprising amount of which is left empty as investment, and in some areas is taken up with holiday cottages. We need to utilise brownfield sites first, and consider how/if recently empty commercial buildings in town centres can be converted.

There is a LOT of real estate out there, it just needs to be used.

@countrytown

But in terms of reducing the demand on resources, natural and otherwise, it could be argued that people should but have more than 1 or 2 children

People in the UK don't have more than 2 dc though.

That's daft. I know several people with 3. Lots of people in the UK have more than 2. I agree it's bad for the environment but the idea people in the UK have 2 or fewer children is silly.

All the retirement accommodation being built around here is mid-rise apartments, so there is definitely a bit of that kind of building going on but aimed at a specific demographic

Lots of development where I am just outside of London and it's all going up!

Boood I completely agree.

Countrytown Do people really want "gardens" though? I see a lot of gardens being turfed over with plastic grass and patios. Gardens fenced off so that they are out of bounds for shrews, mice (food for owls) and hedgehogs.
No thought is given to leaving a gap in the fence to give them access, in fact I'm on quite a few gardening groups and even on there wildlife is referred to as "vermin".
If we aren't careful we won't stop building outwards until the whole of the UK is suburbia with no wild areas left.
If we built upwards we could leave swathes of the countryside for wildlife, food production and leisure.

@Lockheart omg just because you know some who have 3 doesn't mean every family does! 🤣🤣

The UK fertility rate is 1.6 & falling, have a think about it.

@SeoultoSeoul yes I think people do want gardens. Having a garden isn't just about wildlife though, I think many just want private outdoor space.

Why don't you live in a flat?

I think that is going to be a hard sell after the last few years.

But, essentially, I agree that we should be thinking about how much space we are occupying relative to our needs. If I watch another grand designs with a couple swanning around a mansion sized house crowing about their green credentials and eco friendly design the telly will be in mortal peril.

but the idea people in the UK have 2 or fewer children is silly.

Wowsers 🤔

People in the UK don't have more than 2 dc though

This is not my experience at all.a quick straw poll in I reckon 3 dc families account for around 40% of my DC’s acquaintances, 2 dc families account for 40%, and larger/smaller for the rest. There is a local family of 11, although I recognise that’s an outlier! (I’m one of 4, I have 2 dc. Not out of principle, but because 2 was quite enough practically and mentally!).

I love these kind of threads!

‘Build flats! That’s what we need!’

Don’t live in one themselves though

[quote countrytown]@Lockheart omg just because you know some who have 3 doesn't mean every family does! 🤣🤣

The UK fertility rate is 1.6 & falling, have a think about it. [/quote]
Sure, but that doesn't mean "people in the UK don't have more than 2 DCs".

It means "the average person in the UK has less than 2 DCs".

I lived in a 38 story apartment block in the US and I loved it. It had great communal spaces; a terrace on the top floor with barbecues and seating, a large lounge with big tables and a kitchen you could use for entertaining, a gym and work spaces. It even had a dog washing facility. There was a concierge service. I would move somewhere like that here in a heartbeat. I’m sure the service charge would be huge, however. We’re about to move from a house with a large garden to a flat in the centre of a city and I can’t wait, I’m over gardening.

Many people want gardens and having access to gardens contributes to good mental wellbeing.

Do you know the percentage of the uk that is built on? It’s about 6%. A big chunk is devoted to agriculture but we also have a lot of natural landscape.

@SeoultoSeoul

Boood I completely agree.

Countrytown Do people really want "gardens" though? I see a lot of gardens being turfed over with plastic grass and patios. Gardens fenced off so that they are out of bounds for shrews, mice (food for owls) and hedgehogs.
No thought is given to leaving a gap in the fence to give them access, in fact I'm on quite a few gardening groups and even on there wildlife is referred to as "vermin".
If we aren't careful we won't stop building outwards until the whole of the UK is suburbia with no wild areas left.
If we built upwards we could leave swathes of the countryside for wildlife, food production and leisure.

Many people want outside space. For some it's a large patio with furniture and fire pits, for others its a neat, manicured lawn, for others it's a wild garden with wildlife and wildflowers, for others it's a basic green area for kids and pets to play, somewhere to stick the paddling pool on the 5 hot days we get each year.

Outside space requirements vary massively from family to family, but if lockdown 1 taught us anything, it's the value of your own outside space.

I was talking statistically obviously so why would I need to put the word average in? Why would you assume your anecdotal experience is extrapolated for the population?

No thought is given to leaving a gap in the fence to give them access, in fact I'm on quite a few gardening groups and even on there wildlife is referred to as "vermin".

What people do to their own gardens is obviously difficult to police, but planning requirements generally do require gaps under fences etc for wildlife passage.

Re gardens: people may not want gardens to tend in the traditional sense, but I think they want somewhere private to sit and play outdoors.

The UK ageing population is actually a real issue which no government wants to address.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/20/britain-falling-birthrate-covid-pandemic-conservatives-removed-support-for-parents

We live in a flat and also have a garden that the DC never use.