To think we need to start building upwards instead of expanding outwards.

[SeoultoSeoul]

I'm not talking about a return to hideous 60s housing blocks, but surely it would be more space effective to build some decent mid rise apartment blocks rather than continuing to destroy habitat and farmland by building new estates everywhere.

I'm lucky enough to live in a family sized house at the moment (there are 5 of us in it) but DH and I will downsize to a flat once the DC move on.

Small blocks of flats with a communal garden and share of freehold.
Decent noise isolation - not to the highest standard but at least you don’t hear next door’s toilet flushing.
Some storage space - instead of trying to fit as many bedrooms as possible. Again, nothing extravagant, but I have seen bathrooms with no storage at all which is just ridiculous, an under sink unit is the minimum. Somewhere to store a vacuum and ironing board. This type of things.

This would be appealing even to young families.

I would ban non U.K. tax payers buying homes- that before you ban British tax payers owning a second home

godmum56

We are planning to move to one. I also have a DD who is looking for a flat at the moment as it's more convenient for her and her partner to be in a city, close to work and using public transport. Its also very difficult to afford the sort of 4 bed detached houses that are springing up all around our town.

We need to stop building out of town retail parks first. Use brownfield sites for housing.

@MadeOfStarStuff

YABU

it’s impossible to take anyone seriously saying that more people should live in flats when they themselves live in a nice family home with garden.

I live in a lovely detached family house. I am moving to a flat. I think building up rather than out is a good idea, am I allowed to say so?

@Boood

You are completely right, but apartment owners in the UK have been screwed over so badly in the last couple of years that you’d be forgiven for thinking it was a deliberate government policy. Left holding the bill for unsafe building work that could be blamed on either corner-cutting construction firms or confused and inconsistent regulations, but definitely not on the poor bastard who did exactly as they were encouraged to do and bought a home. And then ordered not to go out for months at a time, often without the benefit of any private outdoor space. There are also significant issues with the way leasehold properties are owned, that can leave leaseholders at the mercy of greedy and uninterested freeholders. We do need to encourage more people to live in flats, but the way to do that is to build apartments that people want to live in- with decent-sized rooms and balconies, and enough bedrooms for families. And to reform property ownership laws so that leaseholders have more control and are protected from unscrupulous freeholders.

I agree completely. Tiny amounts of indoor space/storage, eye wateringly expensive service charges, financial chokehold that is the leasehold, minimal decent outdoor space (a concrete car park is not a communal outdoor space!) all needs to be addressed if we're to start building "up" earnestly so that they become viable spaces for families to live.

We can't keep expanding 'out', but we can't expand 'up' without serious changes.

Agree. I was lucky to get on a shared ownership scheme for a flat which has a large balcony (none of that Juliette), decent size rooms, built round an internal courtyard with underground parking. I think this is the way forward, smaller group dwellings with play areas.
Amix of SO and affordable rent. People are invested in caring for the cleanliness etc. We take in each others post. My neighbour rents my parking space from me. However something needs to be done about insulation - new builds are so well insulated they can be beyond boiling in the summer like hot boxes.

Also we need more allotments.

Modern flats don’t even give you a separate kitchen. The rooms are tiny enough without also framing in a kitchen.
Then you have the obsession with en-suite so you have a bedroom which is barely 8ft wide with an en-suite and another bathroom right next it
www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/80185065#/floorplan?activePlan=1&channel=RES_NEW

New build within a few miles of me. Two beds, no kitchen, two bathrooms and three loos.

The trouble is the UK dependence on house prices & seeing the market as a way of making money. We need to move away from that.

Personally, I wouldnt choose a flat. I’d rather have a tall skinny house with a bit of a garden.

@countrytown

The trouble is the UK dependence on house prices & seeing the market as a way of making money. We need to move away from that.

Into what? The housing market is the only thing eclipsing the shite pension provisions- the inevitable removal of the triple lock the housing market will be all ageing folk have

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Theres a stigma or judgement attached to living in flats. When we sold our ground floor garden flat and were specifically looking for a first floor (with attic room) flat, for me dh and our 2dc, everybody we spoke to questioned why on earth we woildnt look for a house.

You are so right about this. We live in a flat- quite a large, nice one in a very expensive area. If I had a pound for every time a friend or relative had hopefully asked if we were thinking of moving to a house, I’d probably be able to afford the extra half mill one would cost round here. And I bet several people post now to tell me that if I was less picky about the area I could easily afford a house. Owning a house over a flat is seen as a marker of success over and above all the other factors, it seems!

YANBU. I definitely prefer flats to houses, less faff, a communal garden also suits me much better. We need more decent sized flats for sure - people would soon get used to them.

Into what? The housing market is the only thing eclipsing the shite pension provisions- the inevitable removal of the triple lock the housing market will be all ageing folk have

Well its not a great model is it or particularly sustainable? what about the younger generations who can't afford 1 house let alone another one to boost their shite pension.

It's all a mess, interest rates should be higher so people don't actually lose money on savings. Housing should be built with living as opposed to profit in mind so you get decent housing conditions.

There’s some research around how to build apartment blocks that create good neighbourhoods. For example they need to be max 3 stories because by the time you live in the 4th people feel detached from the local environment and are more likely to develop anti-social behaviours.

There are also some interesting shapes to build to minimise shared walls and noises. And things like maintained shared grounds can make a huge difference too

For people to live together comfortably, you also need things like quiet hours (e.g.10pm-8am) and so on, with a system that is actually capable of enforcing those rules.

We need to make it easier for people to move house, to give stamp duty relief for people downsizing, for example.

We also need to be putting in decent underground or multistory style car parking. I spent some time in Hamilton, Canada and it's a horribly weird place from a city planning point of view - huge parking lots at ground level and the people living in sky high tower blocks. An alien would think that cars were the important species and the humans who work for them squashed in to make space for them. Saying that, living in a block with a gym and swimming pool was wonderful and made up for not having my own garden.

I live in an area where a lot of people live in tenements with shared gardens, and it's lovely as you do meet your neighbours and have somewhere to go. There are also a lot of parks. If you make really nice apartment blocks, rather than the rubbish blocks aimed students, then people would want them.

@countrytown

Into what? The housing market is the only thing eclipsing the shite pension provisions- the inevitable removal of the triple lock the housing market will be all ageing folk have

Well its not a great model is it or particularly sustainable? what about the younger generations who can't afford 1 house let alone another one to boost their shite pension.

It's all a mess, interest rates should be higher so people don't actually lose money on savings. Housing should be built with living as opposed to profit in mind so you get decent housing conditions.

Sadly we have a society built on debt- though an interest hike would free up some houses …via repossession

Also, I think I read somewhere that the developers maintain priority for maintenance for 20 years so in our council's eyes, they get all the money for council tax for 20 years without having to do anything at all It's shocking

Councils don't maintain buildings anyway. If they own their own social housing stock, maintenance will be paid for by rent and service charges Your council tax covers schools, roads, police, social services etc.

By the way I work for a HA and the developers only maintain new builds for 12 months from handover.

"I'm not talking about a return to hideous 60s housing blocks,"

I grew up in one of those blocks. They wasn't grim until drug use and no evictions started. When they were council ran, lifts etc were repaired. The flats were spacious, you had a big square hallway to get prams in and put coats/storage. The rooms were big and light. There used to be drying space on each floor, behind locked metal railings. Each flat had a balcony. Looking at them now, privately owned and they've fitted a studio in were the drying space used to be. There were community groups that organised coach trips etc. There isn't an issue with them if anti social behaviour is addressed.
They stopped giving the flats to women who had children under five, so many went to live in converted houses that were full of damp. Immigrants and asylum seekers now live in the damp, falling apart properties. There's just been two storey accessible flats, with large gardens around them knocked down across Knowsley. The land is always sold to a private company to build houses. All of the tenants are now in flats without outdoor space. In the area green belt land is being sold off. Yet we have large areas were old factories stand, that will never be used again (Knowsley/Kirkby near Liverpool). It's all about profit. The need for ensuites needs to be readdressed and storage space given.

If they built flats to be more appealing, I suspect more people would choose to live in them.

This is mine. New build, 4 flats in total and I have my own garden. No neighbour noise due to the layout and well insulated without being roasting
I wouldn't say it was small! Bedroom 2 fits a king size bed and giant wardrobe, bedroom 1 fits a super king

There needs to be a change of mindset in the UK for flats to become desirable. If Mumsnet is anything to go by, people think it's almost child abuse to bring children up in a flat.

I live in Madrid and it's completely the norm. Almost everyone lives in flats, including families with small children.

Looks great @NotMyCat and congratulations on your purchase!

Just out of interest, because I'm having trouble visualising it. Where does the bed and other furniture fit in bedroom one?

@ClaudiaWankleman

Looks great *@NotMyCat* and congratulations on your purchase!

Just out of interest, because I'm having trouble visualising it. Where does the bed and other furniture fit in bedroom one?

It's a weird bedroom! I had the strange corner bit boxed off so it has rails/shelves and doors Actually been here a long time now but I found the floor plan last night oddly enough Screenshot which shows it Bedroom 2 also has a set back bit to the right of the door which holds a 3m long wardrobe

I agree with your premise OP, but the idea has a terrible reputation in this country. Largely due to the experience of council tower blocks.

The pic I’ve attached is where I think we should be aiming for but I’m not sure that gels with the profitability most house developers are looking for.