To think we need to start building upwards instead of expanding outwards.

[SeoultoSeoul]

I'm not talking about a return to hideous 60s housing blocks, but surely it would be more space effective to build some decent mid rise apartment blocks rather than continuing to destroy habitat and farmland by building new estates everywhere.

I'm lucky enough to live in a family sized house at the moment (there are 5 of us in it) but DH and I will downsize to a flat once the DC move on.

Off topic but @NotMyCat how do you cope with those windows? Why don't they put smaller top windows in these days is it a cost saving? I hate the idea of not being able to leave a window open.

Instead of building up in high-rise flats no one wants after Grenfell and Covid, get rid of second homes and AirBnBs and the like.

@countrytown

Off topic but *@NotMyCat* how do you cope with those windows? Why don't they put smaller top windows in these days is it a cost saving? I hate the idea of not being able to leave a window open.

There's air vents which I leave open 24:7 but yes, windows have to be shut if I'm asleep I can leave them open if I'm in another room as it's a heavily overlooked small road where my bedroom is and nobody would have a chance of getting in without my neighbour shouting me All the windows are the same, bathrooms don't have windows

@NotMyCat the window situation would annoy me. I stayed in a holiday rental recently & it was quite warm but I couldn't leave any windows open. I've noticed it in quite a few newer properties.

[quote countrytown]@NotMyCat the window situation would annoy me. I stayed in a holiday rental recently & it was quite warm but I couldn't leave any windows open. I've noticed it in quite a few newer properties. [/quote]
To be honest there's maybe 5 days a year when I wish I could open the window (I'm in the NW so rain)
The whole place is built very well so it's always cooler inside than outside in summer and vice versa in winter. I know which windows you mean though, like with the smaller bit at the top. If I ever changed them I might do that in the bedroom windows

Do people really want "gardens" though?

Well, Covid seems to have clearly demonstrated that people do want and value a private outdoor space. That doesn’t necessarily mean a garden in a traditional sense though. No point having a communal area or outdoor areas associated with flats if you can’t be assured of being able to use them (like in a pandemic).

@NotMyCat well it's good you have the correct insulation & air vents. Yes that's the ones I mean.

Living in flats is totally normal in lots of European cities -Berlon, Madrid, Paris etc even if you are very wealthy.

But there tends to be better legal protection for leaseholders (well, leasehold doesn't really exist in the same alway at all) and less opportunity to be ripped off on service charge and other costs

Plus they often have communal gardens or terraces - often built in square with garden for residents in the middle - so you do get outside space.

I agree we should build more densely from an environmental perspective - thrse sprawling new build estates along an A road, all "detached" with crappy build quality and insulation standards bake in high carbon emissions due to the fact driving is assumed to be the only form of transport and they are isolated from so many facilities and transport links.

High density homes built around public transport links with high quality communal gardens would be much better. Doesn't need to be 30 storeys - four or five is fine. Doesn't need to mean tiny little flats either - flats can be big too.

I think three storey houses are a decent way forward. I grew up in a four storey Victorian house. I know it’s not ideal for an ageing population but good for families.

Flats don’t have to be leasehold. They aren’t in Scotland.

Doesn't the church own alot of land in the uk? That and the crown. Sure they could spare some for new towns.

Great so if we have another pandemic we have even more people stuck in flats, no outside space etc

Lots want gardens, for kids to play in safely, for somewhere to sit and entertain, to grow their own veg etc

Lots don’t want leasehold and annual service charges

So let’s not go upwards

I agree tall houses are good!

Lots want gardens, for kids to play in safely, for somewhere to sit and entertain, to grow their own veg etc

"lots" might want that, but realistically, many don't have gardens anywhere near big enough anyway. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend that houses in the UK are synonym with space.

agree tall houses are good!

I love wide houses, more living space & less stairs!

We've just escaped from a flat. Tiny 2 bedroom first floor flat. Shocking sound proofing. No outside space. No storage space.

Moved into a house and our downstairs alone has more space than our previous flat. I'd have been happy if we weren't so cramped.

Flats don’t need to be small, poorly built or leasehold. What is needed is a shift in building standards and, in England, a change in the property system. In our apartment in the US you can’t hear any other occupants. The flat we’re moving to here is 125 square metres, and it’s not leasehold because we’re in Scotland. Many three bed houses have less space. There are tenement flats, especially in Glasgow, which are enormous (but freezing in winter).

I would add that there needs to be a cultural shift too @Chemenger, flats just aren’t seen as desirable, even the city centre/town centre ones marketed as higher end have a very limited market.

You can get really really good densities, with houses and (little) gardens if you compromise on road widths and parking spaces. They've done this really well in Norwich and Cambridge, and the people who live in these new developments seem to love them. Think a modern kind of 2 up 2 down cottage, with a road just wide enough for 2 cars (no parking, minimal front gardens) in between. Sometimes the roads are pedestrianised, sometimes not. Playground, sometimes allotment, and sometimes parking space all in a block (much more space-efficient).

@Chemenger

I lived in a 38 story apartment block in the US and I loved it. It had great communal spaces; a terrace on the top floor with barbecues and seating, a large lounge with big tables and a kitchen you could use for entertaining, a gym and work spaces. It even had a dog washing facility. There was a concierge service. I would move somewhere like that here in a heartbeat. I’m sure the service charge would be huge, however. We’re about to move from a house with a large garden to a flat in the centre of a city and I can’t wait, I’m over gardening.

I could have written this. I live in NYC where the majority of people live in flats - even with kids and dogs.

I live in a Victorian terrace garden flat now, but my friends live in gorgeous apartments with nice kitchens, room for dining tables, high ceilings, floor to ceiling windows and amenities like multiple roof terraces, children's playrooms, swimming pools and doormen.

There are also cheaper buildings that don't have the doorman, but still have things like communal gardens and playgrounds as part of the complex. Several of my friends live in buildings with in-house dog parks.

Back when I lived on the 26th floor of a high rise, I never heard my neighbors because it was properly sound proofed. We had TWO roof terraces, a play room and two rec rooms, as well as a cinema room and a gym.

The UK needs to build better quality flats with better amenities. The flat snobbery is also atrocious. I'll never forget the mumsnet thread where someone said they felt sorry for abused children and children living in flats - like they were the same thing .

@Chloemol

Great so if we have another pandemic we have even more people stuck in flats, no outside space etc

Lots want gardens, for kids to play in safely, for somewhere to sit and entertain, to grow their own veg etc

Lots don’t want leasehold and annual service charges

So let’s not go upwards

This ^

If we aren't careful we won't stop building outwards until the whole of the UK is suburbia with no wild areas left.

I think we have a way to go. Last figures I read say only 9% of England, or 6% of the whole of the UK is actually built on.

Am happy for someone to seek out figures that show it might be a bit more than that (I think I've also seen 12%), but suspect we aren't quite in danger yet of "the whole of the UK {being} suburbia"

I'd quite like to downsize from our family home, but that doesn't mean I want to live in a flat, paying huge service charges which I have no control over, and having neighbour above and below me as well, potentially, alongside me.

Everything about the uk housing situation is screwed. Everything. And the biggest screw up is the lie that it is because of the lack of building new houses. It isn't. property is now an asset rather than a home. until this changes we remained screwed

A huge number of family houses would be released if we built some 2 bed bungalows with courtyard gardens, who is what a lot of retirees want.
But developers won't build them because they can make more money building retirement flats or 5 bed houses.
It's time planning decisions were based on what we need, not what the developers will get the most profit.

The problem is overcrowding

Have you been to Hong Kong? If you fill a city with high-rise apartments it becomes very dark, all the sun is gone. Think of what London would become, for instance.

The first place I bought was a 1950s maisonette, 2 bed, first floor, well built, with our own front door, a small garden and a 987 year lease costing £22p.a. ground rent. It was great.

I looked at it recently on Rightmove. The ground rent is now £1700 a year. I'll stick to freehold !