Evacuation form Afghanistan- women?

[Aprilinspringtimeshower]

So saw this article and the accompanying photo www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/afghanistan-striking-image-appears-to-show-640-people-fleeing-kabul-in-packed-us-military-plane?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is what concerns me- where are the women? The overwhelming majority of people on that plane are men, adult males. There are a few women and some children.
Yet it is the women who are in greatest danger. Young girls, older women. Single women who won’t be able to support themselves once stopped from going outside unaccompanied, professional women who will be banned from working .

Everyone said that the war was about women’s right and way of life. And that what is happening now is a danger to the rights and well-being of women.

Surely it is women who are the ones that need to get out of the country safely and be offered asylum- so where are they? Why wasn’t that plane full of mostly women or even equal amounts of women and the men that accompany them.

I don’t hear the government saying anything to target protection and refuge for women specifically. And to young girls and women who are in real danger

AIBU that it is always the men that get the preference, and that really no one cares enough to actually provide proper protection to the women and girls ..it’s just all sound bites and noble words

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

The same thing happens with tons of people who leave their country for asylum. It is quite the look into the way these men think of you ask me. That they will leave their wives and children to face whatever they have left behind and come here themselves. Because if Britain became somewhere we needed to leave for asylum elsewhere tommorow I do not believe that most men would leave their families, most men I know would actually send their wives and children before themselves and wouldn't think to leave them.

You make it seem like fleeing is the easy option when in fact it is not. You are judging the situation from the outside and you can't possibly know what you or anyone else would do or indeed what it would make sense to do in that situation. The Afghan men I know are deeply loyal to their families and see themselves are protectors and providers. Obviously not all men will be that like but the vast majority won't be leaving their families for selfish reasons. Also, a lot may be single and not have a family to worry about so why shouldn't they get to safety if they can?

An Afghan man who worked with the UK/US might be a danger to his family. If you want to punish a man raping and murdering his wife and daughters in front of him is not unknown.

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

The same thing happens with tons of people who leave their country for asylum. It is quite the look into the way these men think of you ask me. That they will leave their wives and children to face whatever they have left behind and come here themselves. Because if Britain became somewhere we needed to leave for asylum elsewhere tommorow I do not believe that most men would leave their families, most men I know would actually send their wives and children before themselves and wouldn't think to leave them.

Thread after thread after thread regarding feckless men here on Mumsnet who won't even give a penny towards their own children - and you honestly believe that British men would be so selfless?

I refer you back to @kungfupannda's post about 2 pages ago.

Like everyone else on earth there are good and bad people but to say that the 'majority' of Afghan men are happy to abandon their wives while the 'majority' of British men would not is nonsense.

Because if Britain became somewhere we needed to leave for asylum elsewhere tommorow I do not believe that most men would leave their families, most men I know would actually send their wives and children before themselves and wouldn't think to leave them

If my bloke had a price on his head and was guaranteed to be killed, I’d want him to go as fast as possible. I’d make him go.

*to imply not to say

There is that, ancientgran. Also, if you tried to hide your interpreter husband and the Taliban came calling and held a gun to your toddler's head, you'd be hard pushed not to grass him up. Whereas if you can prove he's in another country out of reach, they might pull the trigger out of spite anyway but there is less incentive for them to threaten to do so.

@Blossomtoes

Because if Britain became somewhere we needed to leave for asylum elsewhere tommorow I do not believe that most men would leave their families, most men I know would actually send their wives and children before themselves and wouldn't think to leave them

If my bloke had a price on his head and was guaranteed to be killed, I’d want him to go as fast as possible. I’d make him go.

Too true and the same for my sons and grandsons.

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

The same thing happens with tons of people who leave their country for asylum. It is quite the look into the way these men think of you ask me. That they will leave their wives and children to face whatever they have left behind and come here themselves. Because if Britain became somewhere we needed to leave for asylum elsewhere tommorow I do not believe that most men would leave their families, most men I know would actually send their wives and children before themselves and wouldn't think to leave them.

Send them before them into what exactly? An airport which might be raided by the Taliban at any moment, with those trying to flee imprisoned or shot? A leaky boat that might sink, drowning everyone on board? A trek over mountains crawling with hostile forces? A refugee camp that might be taken over at any minute?

If there's an orderly evacuation with outside help, guaranteed safe passage and a clear promise of something better at the other end, I would imagine most people would want their families to go ahead of them. But that's not what this was. I can't imagine anyone went to that airport calmly confident of boarding a plane and getting away safely, thinking 'Bollocks to my wife and kids. I'm all right Jack.'

@ancientgran

Well, aptly with your username, that was years ago. Obviously some men would and some wouldn't, that wasn't in question there, it was more what I thought more likely. Armed forces and people in jobs like your husband are a bad example anyway because 1. They would actually have a job to do and 2. Nowadays we likely wouldn't treat families like that, the armed forces being the one I know most about, have more in the way of family being kept close to their serving members than they did forty odd years ago.
But I still believe that more men here would want to stay with their family than the numbers elsewhere, that is just my thoughts, and what the comments are for.

Nowadays we likely wouldn't treat families like that, the armed forces being the one I know most about, have more in the way of family being kept close to their serving members than they did forty odd years ago

Do they? That isn’t my experience.

Burnt0utMum TractorAndHeadphones ancientgran
kungfupannda

People obviosuly don't like what my thoughts are and have really jumped on me, some without really understanding where I was coming from, and it's really not needed when there are far more comments than mine.

To be clear for those who didn't understand I am not saying all men anywhere would or wouldnt. I wasnt talking about only in Afghanistan so the comment about men would send their families before them was obviosuly not about Afhanistan or anywhere mainly it was just my thoughts on how the mem I know would be and that they would want their wives gone before them if they could. I didnt say men elsewhere wouldn't. The comment about wanting men in your own family to go if they could is obvious too and not something I said I wouldn't want. All the comments are for is individual thoughts and mine, with who I know and the background I have with jobs of family, is that its unusual to me the number of men who leave families behind. It doesn't have to be unusual to everyone, and it's bad that it is, and it doesn't need people looking for an excuse to jump on individual posters with idiotic comments. All I have done is looked at the facts that most people who get out of any country this happens seem to men and used my own experience and background to make the comment that this is unusual to me.

[quote LifesNotEnidBlyton]@ancientgran

Well, aptly with your username, that was years ago. Obviously some men would and some wouldn't, that wasn't in question there, it was more what I thought more likely. Armed forces and people in jobs like your husband are a bad example anyway because 1. They would actually have a job to do and 2. Nowadays we likely wouldn't treat families like that, the armed forces being the one I know most about, have more in the way of family being kept close to their serving members than they did forty odd years ago.
But I still believe that more men here would want to stay with their family than the numbers elsewhere, that is just my thoughts, and what the comments are for.[/quote]
Elsewhere where? Muslim majority countries?

[quote LifesNotEnidBlyton]@ancientgran

Well, aptly with your username, that was years ago. Obviously some men would and some wouldn't, that wasn't in question there, it was more what I thought more likely. Armed forces and people in jobs like your husband are a bad example anyway because 1. They would actually have a job to do and 2. Nowadays we likely wouldn't treat families like that, the armed forces being the one I know most about, have more in the way of family being kept close to their serving members than they did forty odd years ago.
But I still believe that more men here would want to stay with their family than the numbers elsewhere, that is just my thoughts, and what the comments are for.[/quote]
And of course, most men in Afghanistan are staying with their families. There are over 10 million of them, after all. We're seeing a few thousand, with visas, escape - because there is a price on their heads. Some with their wives and families. Some who have no wives and families. Some who would endanger their wives and families by staying.

This isn't Titanic. There's no lifeboat to safety. Kabul Airport is a dangerous place to be, and only those allowed passage by the UK / US get on the planes.

I don't see the point in speculating on what British people would do in this situation. We've no evidence that the men on those planes have done anything but the best they can for their families. If you want to imagine the worst of them and imagine British people would behave better in your imagined scenario ... your call. If I were to speculate I'd say family bonds are looser in UK if anything.

Blossomtoes

Then that's unfortunate. It obviously isn't everyone so its unfortunate you're in that group.

Burnt0utMum LooksGood

To these comments and to anyone else beofre they comment back to me. I'll just say again all I have done is post my thoughts. They are still my thoughts and people haven't taken them the way I was saying. I wasn't just talking about Afghanistan, and the comments "educating" and telling me to look at another comment aren't needed. Nowhere did I say most men are just abandoning their families and everyone is taking the way I've simplified my comment as my simplifying the whole thing and that is wrong.

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

Burnt0utMum TractorAndHeadphones ancientgran kungfupannda

People obviosuly don't like what my thoughts are and have really jumped on me, some without really understanding where I was coming from, and it's really not needed when there are far more comments than mine.

To be clear for those who didn't understand I am not saying all men anywhere would or wouldnt. I wasnt talking about only in Afghanistan so the comment about men would send their families before them was obviosuly not about Afhanistan or anywhere mainly it was just my thoughts on how the mem I know would be and that they would want their wives gone before them if they could. I didnt say men elsewhere wouldn't. The comment about wanting men in your own family to go if they could is obvious too and not something I said I wouldn't want. All the comments are for is individual thoughts and mine, with who I know and the background I have with jobs of family, is that its unusual to me the number of men who leave families behind. It doesn't have to be unusual to everyone, and it's bad that it is, and it doesn't need people looking for an excuse to jump on individual posters with idiotic comments. All I have done is looked at the facts that most people who get out of any country this happens seem to men and used my own experience and background to make the comment that this is unusual to me.

Yes but you're not looking at why it's mostly men that leave. If it were at all viable then most men would take their families with them or send the women and children first. The truth is though that they are doing what they believe is best and the safest option for their whole family and often that means sending the fittest family members first. I know young healthy men who have died on the journey to claim asylum. As I said, someone very close to me now only just made it here. I would not send anyone on that journey unless they were at the absolute height of health. It's not a safe passage. It's long, gruelling and dangerous with so sympathy given. If you struggle you are left behind to die.

That should say *no sympathy

My previous comments seem to have been jumped on by a few posters. So, for anyone else I just want people to know there's no need because I can see people don't agree. That's ok and not everyone will, it was just my thoughts, but there's no need to derail the OPs thread or have an argument when we should all be able to comment freely so it'd be good to agree to disagree.

That's fair enough. There are reasons for situation you describe, though. People on the thread have explained that men are at greater risk of death now in Afghanistan, and that the hardships and mortal danger of refugee life make it more likely for men to undertake the journey and perhaps survive it. Calais isn't full of men because they pushed women out of their way on their way across Europe to get there, for example.

People are choosing between one dreadful risk and another, staying and going, until or unless they've no choice. The balance of going often tips so that men are more likely to travel, and travel further, as refugees.

Look at this poor man, for example - a target with a day old son who has been refused a UK visa. He's fled the family home. Should he have stayed there? Will he help his poor wife and children in any way at all by refusing a place on a plane? www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/17/afghan-who-guarded-uk-embassy-fears-for-his-life-after-visa-refusal

No one is jumping on anyone and I can’t see any ‘idiotic comments’ in anyone’s post. You say you’re entitled to your thoughts and that’s what the comments are for - well, other people are entitled to disagree with you. That’s also what the comments are for. You’re absolutely entitled to express your opinion, but not to have that opinion go unchallenged.

I note that you say your opinions come from your own personal experience and circumstances which might be different to other people’s. Every man on those planes has their own circumstances and situations which is unique to them too. Some of them may have dumped their families and run but I doubt that’s the majority. They deserve to be treated as individuals, not as representatives of some ‘other culture’ where they don’t do things like we think they should be done.

Burnt0utMum LooksGood

As I've said my comment was simplified but obviosuly the problems there aren't. I understand the problems there and again as said beofre I wasnt only talking about Afghanistan. Nowhere have I said the men are all wrong, and nowhere have i said theyce all wanted to do this. I have said a few times now it's only my thoughts and theres no need for is to argue just because people disagree, I can still comment, and I dont want to derail the thread with individual arguments.

[quote LifesNotEnidBlyton]@ancientgran

Well, aptly with your username, that was years ago. Obviously some men would and some wouldn't, that wasn't in question there, it was more what I thought more likely. Armed forces and people in jobs like your husband are a bad example anyway because 1. They would actually have a job to do and 2. Nowadays we likely wouldn't treat families like that, the armed forces being the one I know most about, have more in the way of family being kept close to their serving members than they did forty odd years ago.
But I still believe that more men here would want to stay with their family than the numbers elsewhere, that is just my thoughts, and what the comments are for.[/quote]
Well many of us of the relevant vintage are still here so I tend to think things haven't changed that much.

Yes my husband would have had a job to do, his point was he would happily do his job and risk his life as he did more than once but only if he knew his family were safe. To him the idea of him being in a relatively safe compound and us being left to fend for ourselves wasn't reasonable, he was shocked to find how many men thought it was entirely reasonable even commendable.

The pianist of Yarmouk is a good story to look at as it explains why his family took the decision he would try to escape Syria solo and send for wife and child under family reunion if he made it - it was a difficult decision that he sometimes debated along the way - a heart rending story as well. I know it’s difficult for us to understand when we see men mainly on boats or at airports but there are many, many reasons that it is the men on the run more than the women and - unusually - not always because they’re selfish dicks.

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

Blossomtoes

Then that's unfortunate. It obviously isn't everyone so its unfortunate you're in that group.

The only unfortunate thing is you talking absolute rubbish.

Life is not Enid Blyton, the networks and the way things are structured are very different in counties like Afghanistan.
The more modern richer families may be looser and more progressive but otherwise women are controlled and Co ordinated by family hierarchy and "uncles" etc.

In a sad article yesterday, the man a liberated girl feared the most knocking on her door after the fall of the kabul was her uncle who married her off age 12 to a cousin (financial Times)

There are layers upon layers of repression.
As pp have said I'm sure some of families are genuine and lovely.
Like tyere are any where in the world.

I am estranged from my dB and he's the absolute last person I'd want to have any jurisdiction over me. It would make my life miserable.

For men who have not worked for the West, I really don't think it could be argued that their lives will be as bad as for the girls.

They whole world, the un everyone is crying out for the girls!!