XH been accessing DC phones

[MahMahMahMahCorona]

Eldest DC11 just been in touch to say his 'D'F has confessed to being privy to all WhatsApp conversations on his phone - between me and DC, my OH and DC, DGrandparents / family, friends, our own "family chat". Asked DC to check linked devices - there are none. Seems like XH has maybe cloned their phones? I bought the handsets, contracts are in my name. DC have never voluntarily given their DF permission to trawl through their messages (inane banter from the entire class of Year 6 is pretty dire in any case... but DC know I do it).

Certainly makes sense now for DC11: he felt like he was going through an inverted gaslighting experience as 'D'F would bring up subjects which DC and I had discussed just a couple of hours earlier on WhatsApp... DC has had a lot of therapy following historic (and ongoing) emotional abuse from 'D'F.

AIBU to think this really isn't appropriate? I've contacted network provider and they've said they can provide new sims but that this can and probably will happen again. What can I do?!

He probably had linked devices and after confessing has unlinked them, it takes seconds to do.

Just keep an eye on the linked devices bit in the future.

If you feel up to it you could also report to the police because as you own the phone he has accessed it without your consent. Which isn't legal.

Love your username @pastabest!

Thank you - I was wondering if this might be a police matter - thing is when I look at linked devices on my phone it tells me when I last logged in and from which PC - this isn't the case on either of the DC phones which I find suspicious....

He's their parent. He certainly has a right to check their phone and probably should be monitoring their phone.

They probably need seperate phones/WhatsApp accounts they only use there to protect your privacy.

I wouldn’t expect a child’s phone to be private and I think any responsible parent reads their child’s chats with their friends at this age. I am up front with my dc (14 and 12) that this is a condition of having the phone. That it isn’t private.
I check the 14yo’s less now and obviously as they get to about 16 I won’t any longer. As long as they are proving to understand online safety and handle themselves responsibly in the interim.

The difficulty is the messages between you and dc. Really he shouldn’t be reading those… what on Earth are you saying by text that’s private though? I would probably read if the dc were part of a family group chat with their dad’s family. But then I also know that the family chat wouldn’t be concerning in any way or a secret from me.

They are entitled to a private conversation with you obviously and the issue is if your ex is using the dc’s phones to monitor your movements or to exert some kind of control over you.

@Caramellatteplease

He's their parent. He certainly has a right to check their phone and probably should be monitoring their phone.

They probably need seperate phones/WhatsApp accounts they only use there to protect your privacy.

I agree with this as I think with PR he is entitled to ensure that text content is appropriate - particularly with the friendship groups. The difference is that the children and I share this content and discuss what is and what is not appropriate. At no point has their father told either of them that he was privy to their chats.

@WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly - "The difficulty is the messages between you and dc. Really he shouldn’t be reading those… what on Earth are you saying by text that’s private though? I would probably read if the dc were part of a family group chat with their dad’s family. But then I also know that the family chat wouldn’t be concerning in any way or a secret from me.

They are entitled to a private conversation with you obviously and the issue is if your ex is using the dc’s phones to monitor your movements or to exert some kind of control over you."

I think this is the tricky part - currently my own DF is in hospital, so I was letting DC know how he's doing by text. As far as I'm concerned, this is a private family matter. Likewise, I'm pregnant. The DC have decided they would like me to tell their dad after the summer holidays - obviously now there's little chance in that being news.

He should probably have told them and your way sounds better. But at 11 he doesn’t need their permission and lots of parents don’t tell their kids they look.

Hmmm. If my ex FIL was in hospital I would expect to be told as it affects the dc. I’d also be highly unimpressed with not knowing they were expecting a sibling and with them agreeing not to share that with me.

I get that there might be a back story and very good reasons why you find his involvement in your life intrusive. But he is the dc’s parent and personally I think he has a right to know about major life events that affect them so that he can guide and support them.

It’s very tricky and if your ex has been controlling or sbusive towards you then I see exactly why you’re uncomfortable

Sadly @WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly there is a huge backstory, we don't co-parent, we parallel parent. Their father knows my DF's situation however he has been preventing the DC from getting in touch (phone calls) this week (they saw their grandfather become very ill last Saturday, went to their father on Sunday) so they text me in secret. It's awful. His emotional sterility is something they have had to come to terms with, he's not a very nice man. Tragic really, I thought I could fix him, I did for a while, it didn't last long, we divorced. Now the DC go alone to him as it's court ordered, and they struggle.

@WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly

It’s very tricky and if your ex has been controlling or sbusive towards you then I see exactly why you’re uncomfortable

I think this is probably it: it's the secrecy. If he had been upfront with the DC about checking their phones, I think I would be less frustrated. But he hasn't. It's a shame: our entire marriage from start to finish was a sham (deception from before we even walked down the aisle) and now he's lying by omission to the children. He's not looking - to them - like a particularly nice person. They're pretty astute too so they've already got his number - but my eldest is now angry that he feels his privacy has been invaded, he opens up emotionally to me, whereas he protects himself by keeping quiet with his father.

That sounds utterly shit and obviously the phones are the tip of the iceberg. I get why you would want to keep him distant from your lives.
As a starting point is there a way to password protect your WhatsApp chat with the dc so he can’t read it?
Or password protect the entire phone so he can’t link it to his devices.

Having to text you in secret is hideous and damaging and it really is awful having to send your dc into an environment like that. Family courts are a mess 😢

That is a really sad situation you describe in your last post. And in this context, what I said about it being ok no longer applies

He's their parent. He certainly has a right to check their phone and probably should be monitoring their phone.

Totally different thought when the EXH is clearly a controlling dick

@WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly you are assuming the father is a decent parent whereas the OP has made it clear he isn't.

The father being 'entitled' to know things like his ex's parent being in hospital or his ex being pregnant is wholly dependant on the type of person he is and what he would do with that information.

OP I completely understand your feelings around this and they are perfectly valid. I'd consider logging it with the police in case of future difficulties.

Turn on two factor authentication on whatsapp, and make sure exDH does not know the code. This should prevent him linking devices without their knowledge.

Buy them a couple of brick type phones that call and text on pay as you go and only send them with those. Yes it’ll cut them off from their friends a bit but it will limit his routes to controlling you via them.

Thank you so much everyone - it's certainly helpful to realise that whilst he does have PR and is entitled to look at phones for safeguarding, you understand why I might feel uncomfortable.

For a bit more backstory, this is me too:

And the Father of the Year Award goes to.... http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4185617-and-the-father-of-the-year-award-goes-to

Two factor Authenticator is a good idea - what confuses me though is that neither of their phones are showing as "linked", which leads me to believe this is more than just a QR code on WhatsApp web. When we get their phones back we will have a look: annoyingly they've both got family link and their handsets are new (March and July), so they always have to ask permission (it sends me a text) to download stuff onto their phones. This is why I don't think this is simply WhatsApp. I think it's everything - photos and texts too. And probably in that case, my gmail account.

@loopyapp

Buy them a couple of brick type phones that call and text on pay as you go and only send them with those. Yes it’ll cut them off from their friends a bit but it will limit his routes to controlling you via them.

I think this will probably be our only option. It's just a bit of a concern that even if we buy PAYG he may well still have access to the phones they use when they're here at home.

He might have PR but neither him or the children own those phones.

Your children have use of them and you as the owner of the phone and you as the other parent with PR is already checking safe use of them.

He can ask his children if he can view the content on phone as the parent with PR to ensure their safety but he has no right to access it covertly - especially if they aren't with him at the time - without the permission of the owner of the phone. That's really intrusive and I don't think would necessarily be covered by him having PR.

It's the covert nature of the access that is the issue here.

@WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly you are assuming the father is a decent parent whereas the OP has made it clear he isn't.

I’m not assuming any such thing, if you read my posts properly. He sounds like an utter dick, in fact.

OP, could he have installed spyware? The police can check this for you if nothing else, and that is illegal which would give you evidence of abuse should you need it in the future.

Using factory reset on the phones should probably sever the connection as it wipes everything. Start again from scratch, they use non smart phones when at Dad's, can swap Sim between them. No idea if he could do anything off access to Sim. I'd be changing all associated passwords, like your Gmail. Gmail sends me a notification when a new device accesses my account for the first time, so hopefully it's not that. But I'd change everything just in case.

@pastabest thank you - this is probably what I needed to hear.

@WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly - I think it'll be spyware. He's a computer genius. 😔

There’s a huge difference between a parent checking their child’s phone to make sure that they’re not saying or receiving inappropriate communications from others, and a cloned 24hr surveillance.

1. get the current phones checked when they return change all passcodes - reset to factory models if needed and even better change their mobile numbers These phone then never ever ever go to his house
2. get an old phone and do not download any apps or any email etc and get a basic sims for it and then FaceTime with them an iPhone 4 would do the job when they are with him
3. talk about privacy my children know I can check their phones at any time but I ask to do it etc