XH been accessing DC phones

[MahMahMahMahCorona]

Eldest DC11 just been in touch to say his 'D'F has confessed to being privy to all WhatsApp conversations on his phone - between me and DC, my OH and DC, DGrandparents / family, friends, our own "family chat". Asked DC to check linked devices - there are none. Seems like XH has maybe cloned their phones? I bought the handsets, contracts are in my name. DC have never voluntarily given their DF permission to trawl through their messages (inane banter from the entire class of Year 6 is pretty dire in any case... but DC know I do it).

Certainly makes sense now for DC11: he felt like he was going through an inverted gaslighting experience as 'D'F would bring up subjects which DC and I had discussed just a couple of hours earlier on WhatsApp... DC has had a lot of therapy following historic (and ongoing) emotional abuse from 'D'F.

AIBU to think this really isn't appropriate? I've contacted network provider and they've said they can provide new sims but that this can and probably will happen again. What can I do?!

If it's on an electronic device when they at their Dads you need to assume he will be able to access it.

Totally different thought when the EXH is clearly a controlling dick

Whilst it would be nice if this were true it really isnt. Ex has a duty to safeguard the kids when he is in his care.

No child should assume they have privacy on devices. I'm not sure there is a need to make it explicit although is is be far and away better to do. School will be saying parents should be checking your usage if nothing else so it cant come as a huge surprise if their dad is doing so.

Yy to cheap Pay as you go phones there

IMO an 11 year old should be having their phone and conversations regularly checked by a parent. School advises the same when taking about online safety etc. Can't see too much wrong here.

I would worry he has put a virus on their phones rather than linked to them which allows him to read everything without knowledge.

Are they iPhones?

Could you factory reset them without them losing too much? I’d usually suggest backing them up first, but if you’re seriously thinking that spyware might be an issue, I’d probably avoid that if possible…

And I’d second sending them with a different phone. Ideally an old one that doesn’t have much in the way of internet access, communicate with them on a different phone number, use texts and be aware they’ll be being read.

Thanks all: I've been in touch with 101 who were very helpful. They've said that absolutely - parents have the right to look at their children's phones because of all the issues they have to contend with these days with grooming.

However. They added that private conversations between a child and their parent is not something the other parent should be covertly surveying. She agreed that this was controlling, particularly as their father has been referring to these conversations, and is a continuation of his abuse despite the fact we are divorced.

They have confirmed that as a parent with parental responsibility, when the children are in his care, he has every right to tell them he will be checking their phones. The lines have been crossed however because he’s been accessing their phones when they are home with me. She agrees that we should provide the children with a PAYG phone to take with them in future, and also to use whenever they contact him from now on.

She's added this now to the previous history and said any further issues to call them. And to take both phones in to the service provider to clean them of the suspected spyware.

@LolaButt

There’s a huge difference between a parent checking their child’s phone to make sure that they’re not saying or receiving inappropriate communications from others, and a cloned 24hr surveillance.

I think this is why I must be feeling so uncomfortable. The first week he had the DC over the summer he took no time off work so they were spending a lot of time on their phones. And texting me with their frustration at his lack of interest in them. I think they now feel quite upset that he was privy to these conversations. Likewise when my eldest was having some trouble at a sleepover he texted me to say he just needed some reassurance (he gets anxious), and he certainly wouldn't want his DF to be privy to his feelings.

@MiniCooperLover

I would worry he has put a virus on their phones rather than linked to them which allows him to read everything without knowledge.

I think this is what the police have surmised: there is no reference to online logins from a PC on their phones. Which means it's probably something which is rather more spy / mal / virus like.

I'm staggered by the responses here.

If you are telling the children to keep information from their father you are teaching your children to lie. The father has a right to know about a new sibling. Doesn't matter how much of a knobhead he is.

I also bet the conversation between child and father gets checked by the mother as well.

@Rebornagain

I'm staggered by the responses here.

If you are telling the children to keep information from their father you are teaching your children to lie. The father has a right to know about a new sibling. Doesn't matter how much of a knobhead he is.

I also bet the conversation between child and father gets checked by the mother as well.

I totally understand this: the DC themselves said they didn't want him to know until after the summer holidays, because it means they won't have to spend a week with him whilst he's grumpy, just a weekend. In fact DC9 said "let's tell him when the baby is here."

They've been through a huge amount with him and his behaviour to already know they want to protect themselves from him. I respect that and I was going to email him to inform him, when they return from their part of the holidays with him.

Sounds like you have got good advice from the police and it’s good that you have logged it with them. You’ve done everything you can.

The thing is Reborn that whilst I agree in theory, sometimes it’s a sad fact that the dc need to be protected from the other parent.

OP you sound like a lovely and excellent mum in a really difficult situation, treading a difficult balance.

Thank you @WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly - I really appreciate your comment. It's so hard to navigate something like this: even my sister has said "just pick up the phone".

It doesn't work like that. I've tried to reason with him for years, the fact is he simply won't / can't communicate on the same level as I do. We've had couples counselling, we've had mediation, we've had psychotherapy - together and individually. I tried as I've said before to fix him - he's an incredibly damaged individual raised by two warring parents, and we welcomed him into our family with open arms. Sadly he changed only for a moment and now we are divorced, have been separated for nearly 5 years, and the only option is to parallel parent because he simply refuses to co parent. Even family court realised that. It's tragic, and I wish things were different.

As well as getting them text/call only phones, can you change their numbers and not give them to him?

PS How about going back to court? Elder one is 11, that's old enough for the court to take his wishes into account. Normally probably not for the 9yo, but it sounds like he's articulate and if he says the same as his brother they may well factor that in for him too.

If you have an android phone and it is logged in to a gmail account photos etc are probably being automatically backed up to the photos section of the gmail account - if XH has the password for the gmail accounts he can easily log in and see photos backed up from the phone. Really you should change the passwords on all your accounts.

You can use - if you have any tech knowledge - a free password manager like BitWarden - it works across all windows, iOS, Android devices.

@Feedingthebirds1

PS How about going back to court? Elder one is 11, that's old enough for the court to take his wishes into account. Normally probably not for the 9yo, but it sounds like he's articulate and if he says the same as his brother they may well factor that in for him too.

The divorce proceedings took a very very long time (it was only when a judge ordered certain information that he gave it, so we were in court before any formal exchange of Form E / finances, which were all so convoluted and complex it took time to unpick...) during which time he would see DC EOW. No more, no less.

After divorce I had 6 months grace, then he played hard ball again so I had to fight, again, return to the judge. Then another 6 months grace and he raised C100 having never mentioned the DC before. So we ended up at a final hearing for child matters in February of this year. It's been 6 months. I should have remembered this is cyclical - he's bored.

By the time it got to child proceedings I asked CAFCASS not to speak to the DC. They were both in therapy at the time, added to this, they had ELSA, SENCO support at school. CAMHS referrals, GP input, consultant led care. Various diagnoses. A lot of trusted adults were involved. CAFCASS took the view that these trusted adults could be relied on to provide support when necessary, my concerns regarding emotional well-being were disregarded, and court didn't provide a particularly structured outline: EOW, 1 week at Christmas, 1 at Easter, 2 separate weeks in summer (father to be proactive in providing notice 2 months prior...). And said that because of the ages of the children father needed to be "flexible" as in time they would want to hang out with their mates rather than hang out with either of their parents.

Right now, I just cannot wait to see the DC they'll be back this evening. I'll piece them back together as I always do after they've spent time in his care, returning like broken jigsaws, and we will have some downtime before getting back into the swing of our own family life here where they live.

Not if you hard wipe them and use different accounts to set them up. It’s a shame for the kids but safer for everyone involved x

It’s usually 12 when courts start to listen to the dcs’ wishes and even then tbh they can say they’ve been influenced by the other parent if what the dc say doesn’t fit with their narrative.

Family courts are woeful, as anyone who has experience of them xxx

@WhenZoomWasJustAnIceLolly - I couldn't agree more. I had reports from highly trained medical professionals diagnosing attachment disorders and evidence of emotional welfare issues. It was all disregarded - came down to a "difference in parenting style."

😐

*evidencing

It’s age ten when family courts take children’s wishes and feelings into account.

Also IME if the older child does not want to continue with direct contact and the younger child expresses similar then both children’s wishes are taken into account.

CAFCASS we’re involved in my case and the CAFCASS officer was very concerned for my DC which ultimately contributed towards direct contact being stopped.

It was a long hard slog though and my poor DC counted down the seconds till my eldest turned ten.

Having thought about it (a lot) today, the irony is that I won't have to go back to court.

The parent / child relationship my ex has developed with our children is, at best, strained. He chooses not to engage with them - I believe it comes from childhood trauma, in that he's never got past the age of 8.

Fortunately I've come to the realisation that the way he chooses to parent and behave towards them is not my responsibility. Unlike many who have been traumatised in childhood and who have managed to turn everything around and learn from their experience (that it isn't something they want to inflict on their own offspring), he changed for a moment and then reverted to type. I can't even say this is the worst thing he's done because he has done worse - stolen quite a substantial amount of money from each DC being possibly the most heinous - and sadly, as I have learnt today, I just have to keep reminding myself that he has not got the capacity to change.

Working all this through here has been so helpful. Thank you.

They're back! They are starving but they're home. Who doesn't give their kids tea when returning them after 7pm 😩

@MahMahMahMahCorona

They're back! They are starving but they're home. Who doesn't give their kids tea when returning them after 7pm 😩

A surprisingly high number of utterly shit fathers who only insist on contact to hurt the mother of their children.

I used to ensure there was loads of food ready after contact so DC could eat immediately.

They don't have to go, court ordered or not. If they refuse, they can't be forced. All they have to do is tell caffcass they don't want to see him and they won't. Going back to court will damage them less in the long run than being repeatedly retraumatised by forced contact.