XH been accessing DC phones

[MahMahMahMahCorona]

Eldest DC11 just been in touch to say his 'D'F has confessed to being privy to all WhatsApp conversations on his phone - between me and DC, my OH and DC, DGrandparents / family, friends, our own "family chat". Asked DC to check linked devices - there are none. Seems like XH has maybe cloned their phones? I bought the handsets, contracts are in my name. DC have never voluntarily given their DF permission to trawl through their messages (inane banter from the entire class of Year 6 is pretty dire in any case... but DC know I do it).

Certainly makes sense now for DC11: he felt like he was going through an inverted gaslighting experience as 'D'F would bring up subjects which DC and I had discussed just a couple of hours earlier on WhatsApp... DC has had a lot of therapy following historic (and ongoing) emotional abuse from 'D'F.

AIBU to think this really isn't appropriate? I've contacted network provider and they've said they can provide new sims but that this can and probably will happen again. What can I do?!

Fortunately I've come to the realisation that the way he chooses to parent and behave towards them is not my responsibility.

Sorry @MahMahMahMahCorona, but it IS your responsibility if it's upsetting your DCs. They need you to tell them that it's OK not to see him if they don't want to. You can't wash your hands of his behaviour like that even if it may cause you some issues for a while.

You didn't want CAFCASS to talk to them before an earlier hearing because you wanted to protect them from trauma, but you're putting them through much more by sending them to him eow. Listen to them and be on their side. Let them talk to CAFCASS, let them say all the things he's done and why they don't want to see him. Don't let the court grind you down, there are ways to deal with this.

@Feedingthebirds1 - I totally get what you're saying.

Having worked now for over a year helping other people, men and women, to litigate in person during child proceedings I can honestly say that the bar is soooo low. If the NRP is capable of keeping a child alive, they will get contact. Even if the NRP has substance abuse problems, they will get contact (indirect, then contact centre, then unsupervised). The concerns I raised in court regarding the emotional, mental and physical health, welfare and wellbeing of my DC fell on deaf ears. The medical reports, the CAMHS diagnosis, the diagnoses made by their consultants, it was all disregarded. What it boils down to in court terms is a "difference in parenting style / approach."

One can only do so much when presented with such an archaic system as the family court and judicial system. Particularly when they still aren't in a position to completely understand the complexities of coercive control and continued abuse through the children of the marriage / relationship, despite separation / divorce.

I've worked on cases where I was convinced a parent would not get contact, and yet they did; likewise I've worked on cases where I felt a parent would most definitely get contact however the fact finding hearing has gone totally against them and they've struggled on the stand because of a bullish Barrister.

I presented all the evidence I could to the court with the view that they would determine an outcome which was in the DC best interests.

The DC are aware that their father doesn't parent in the same way that I do. They understand that his behaviour is somewhat different. But I have always said that they deserve to form their own relationships with him, otherwise he gets put on a pedestal and revered, which is what happened during lockdown when he declined to see them despite Gove saying DC of separated parents could move between houses. They don't know he declined that contact, but they found it very tough not seeing him for so long.

So it's swings and roundabouts: without the contact they have with him, they aren't in a position to build their own boundaries with regards to his behaviour. So yes, whilst it is my responsibility to protect them from him, they have also been equipped with methods for managing his behaviour.

They don't have to go, court ordered or not. If they refuse, they can't be forced. All they have to do is tell caffcass they don't want to see him and they won't.

Sadly, this just isn’t true.

It's what happened with my nephew. He is 7. His dad was an abusive cunt. Court ordered supervised contact. He refused. My sister is 5ft nothing and very slightly built, he is already nearly as tall as her, she couldn't force him to go and his father wasn't allowed to come to her home. So he didn't go.

It went back to court, caffcass spoke to him and he said he wasn't seeing him, wasn't speaking to him and didn't want to know him. Point blank refused.

His sister still has to go as she is only 5 but nephews wishes were respected. They didn't really have much choice tbh, short of sending someone to physically force him to the contact centre.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut this is unusual. In most cases they are forced to go!

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut that really does sound like a unique case. Your poor sister / nephew. I've always said to DC that they are better, together, working as a team (XH + siblings are / were totally triangulated and can't be in the same room even now - think XMIL 70th birthday celebrations over two days so she could "host" each child (3) + various family members at lunch / dinner / lunch...) - I know youngest wouldn't go if oldest didn't.

What strikes me is the lack of consistency: if the NRP doesn't show up / sporadic involvement despite the order, there's little consequence whereas if the RP fails to make the children available, it's a breach and can be enforced. Totally wrong.

What strikes me is the lack of consistency: if the NRP doesn't show up / sporadic involvement despite the order, there's little consequence whereas if the RP fails to make the children available, it's a breach and can be enforced. Totally wrong.

Yes the order is to make the child available, not that the contact must happen. They don't care if dc are sitting waiting and no one turns up as long as they were ready to go. Exp was furious when the judge actually believed that he wanted to engage with dc's school. (He'd tried to say that I'd prevented this as he hadn't received emails from them and raised a formal complaint against the school for doing that for me. Turns out he'd made a mistake in the email address, possibly deliberately) based on this they decided to give him a school pick up EO Friday. This did not suit as his girlfriend was working and not available to go and get them for him or at least drive him there. He turned up once on the bus, pulled them out half an hour early which massively worried dc as he couldn't be bothered to wait til the end of the day then never got them on the Friday again. Judge did not consider this or want to hear about it at later hearings. It just didn't matter and gave him extra weekend time instead.

@liveforsummer - I suggested in court that NRP collect from school and he said no because he didn't want them to have to take in bags of clothes EOW on Friday. Despite a reduction in CMS he refuses to provide any clothing. I have to provide it all. So court suggested he collect them 30mins after his proposed time so they can get their bags ready 🤣

CAFCASS also said he is to utilise his PR and get in touch with school / medics to find out how DC are getting on. He didn't hold back from telling DC how furious he was that he had had to telephone the hospital back in March to find out whether DC had been discharged or not.... 🤷🏼‍♀️

Name change fail - sorry!

I think once they get to 7 or 8 it's physically impossible to force them so if they are adamant that they won't go, that's that.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

I think once they get to 7 or 8 it's physically impossible to force them so if they are adamant that they won't go, that's that.

Sadly, a court order can, absolutely, force them to go.

Hi. How do the courts force them to go? If they're to big to be picked up/bribed etc.

My view of it is as follows:

The NRP simply has to return to court for an enforcement if multiple breaches are recorded and evidenced. This means the RP can get into trouble for contempt (ie for not following the order).

If the RP were to apply to court for a variation, CAFCASS were to actively listen to and act upon the wishes and feelings of the child, and the child was of an age (11-12-13-14) where these were actually taken into consideration (and no "parental alienation" where one parent actively seeks to undermine the other parent in the child's mind, is evidenced), other steps to manage contact arrangements could be considered.

It's complicated and each case is unique - there is no precedent. Equally, it absolutely depends on the day, your attitude in court, the attitude of the other party, the time of the hearing etc etc as to how the arrangements order will pan out.

@forrestgreen. They can't. That was the problem.

He didn't care who the judge was and certainly wouldn't listen to any of us giving him a load of bollocks about how daddy loves him. He was afraid of his dad and he hated him and he wasn't going.

Short of sending a police officer to manhandle him into a car and then into the centre every Friday, there was nothing to be done. He's too big for me to overpower him without hurting him and his mother certainly can't.

[quote nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut]@forrestgreen. They can't. That was the problem.

He didn't care who the judge was and certainly wouldn't listen to any of us giving him a load of bollocks about how daddy loves him. He was afraid of his dad and he hated him and he wasn't going.

Short of sending a police officer to manhandle him into a car and then into the centre every Friday, there was nothing to be done. He's too big for me to overpower him without hurting him and his mother certainly can't.[/quote]

This is just so sad. What damage and trauma this little boy has been through. I'm glad the courts saw fit to do the right thing. In so many cases they let the children down.

So I've had the phones checked by the service provider and they've helped unlink the android from all connected devices. The iPhone was not affected in any way. QR codes and all passwords have now been renewed, and a basic burner phone bought for all future contact (accepts only calls or texts). DC have been told to block him on their smartphones and not to open any files / links from him if they receive anything (somehow). Hard reset after we've backed up the Android to be performed when we get home.

Thank you all for your help and guidance as to how to manage this. Have said to DC best response is no response: the response of their 'D'F to the information regarding burner phone was hilarious.

"Remember, you need to facilitate calls if you expect me to do the same for you." 😐

Is that a threat I see before me?!!

You are facilitating calls, just on their new burner phones

@forrestgreen

Hi. How do the courts force them to go? If they're to big to be picked up/bribed etc.

Your average 8 year old is still expected to do what a parent says. Like what if they refused to see a dentist or go to school. Most people manage to get them there. A judge would definitely expect this!

@forrestgreen

You are facilitating calls, just on their new burner phones

I think he's looking for a response / reaction. Ironically phone / text contact isn't even ordered so I don't have to do anything.... DC don't always want to talk / text but NRP will always believe in his mind that I'm preventing them. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Have you changed all your passwords too? Eg you google account/Accounts etc . I would just to be safe

Hi @TootTootTootToot - yes, all done, thank you.

Had a chat with DC therapist today who said it could be a helpful learning experience for them - to know that they have to be really wary of any sort of link sent by email / WhatsApp / text to their phones, and that even people they think they can and should trust, might not be totally trustworthy. Hard to be reminded that their own 'D'F is dishonest / deceitful, but they've been really mature about it all. They're only tiny. Therapist said they've already got the measure of him, and if he keeps disappointing them time and again they will soon back away. So sad.

She sounds like a keeper!

After all the palava of hard resets, password changes and burner phone, incoming call scheduled last night didn't happen. An email instead: "I'm abroad. No signal. Can't call." This after the DC spent upwards of 8hrs a day on screens for the first week of the summer holidays as 'D'F took no time off work (WFH). He really is a prize.

I can't imagine why you split up from such a catch

@britnay

I can't imagine why you split up from such a catch

I'm almost starting to regret it... almost. The only good thing to come out of it are the DC. It intrigues me that my DSis often defends him, and yet the day before my wedding day was in tears, pleading with me not to go through with it. With hindsight I should have perhaps listened to her, but then I wouldn't have the DC....

I would say the man I married is not the monster I divorced. But I think he hid the monster very early on.