A level grades

[DolphinFC]

If feel that value of an A grade ar A level has been reduced dramatically. I feel truly sorry for those very bright, hard-working students who would've got an A grade no matter what. Their deserved A grade is now lost in a pile of undeserved A grades.

The subtext here is that somehow the private sector gamed the system or cheated to give their pupils more As than they should have. I don't believe that's true.

From the BBC's article:

According to Ofqual figures, in 2019 there was a 24 percentage point gap between independent schools and comprehensives in A* and A grades at A-level - this year it has risen to 31 percentage points.

It's not a surprise that independent schools achieve higher grades that comprehensive schools in any year. These figures do however suggest that the grade inflation was not equal. This could well be due to the fact that independent schools were on the whole better equipped to maintain the quality of education throughout the pandemic (either by their own resources or the resources available to the students at home), but it seems somewhat unfair that those not at independent schools are penalised for this.

@Bryonyshcmyony

The subtext here is that somehow the private sector gamed the system or cheated to give their pupils more As than they should have. I don't believe that's true.

The private sector are an interesting bunch.

Nothing would surprise me.
Reminds me of the reports re.special consideration exposed in 2017...

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38923034.amp

@Bryonyshcmyony,

Read the guidance! It is all their for you. Read first, then we can discuss further.

Do you really believe that private schools (on average) are not influenced by wealthy and litigious parents, aside from results being how they ultimately derive their income?!

Even if individual teachers try to be fair, heads know the value of these results, and governors will also be taking a keen interest.

I don’t think it is an outright ‘fiddle’, but I do believe that the awarded grades are basically every pupil achieving their ‘aspirational’ grade.

@NotBadConsidering

Preech

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say you don’t think there is a group of school leavers who have come out of this on the lucky side? Do you genuinely think that every single 18 year old A level student across the country has been allocated the grades they 100% deserve on merit?

Can you honestly know for sure they haven't? Do you have close relationships with every single 18 year old who sat A-levels in this country? You're assuming just as much as I am.

Again, an awful lot of previous posters have shown up to explain why a one-off exam can give you such different grade results in a group, compared with collecting evidence.

I absolutely agree that lessons should be learned from this, and carried forward. I happen to think a grade based on several pieces of evidence is a more thorough way to assess a student's capabilities: plenty of other countries do it exactly that way. I find it really disappointing that so many posters genuinely expect only 10-20% of their youths to be highly intelligent and capable people, and are genuinely upset that a new way of measuring aptitude might indicate otherwise.

@Preech

What do you suggest, then?

If a university provides a course that, on average, only the most academically gifted 10% are capable of succeeding in but now that top 10% can't be differentiated from the top 50%, because they all did equally well at A-level, how do they identify the suitable students?

If people are going to say "go on interviews, assessments", etc., then that's completely negated the point of having A-levels in the first place.

I certainly do feel sorry for those DC who have worked extremely hard and put in hours and hours of revision to get the grades they want.

To my mind, these are the students who deserve A* and A grades. Not nearly half of the cohort.

Having said that, I’m not sure what the alternative would have been this year.

Do you really believe that private schools (on average) are not influenced by wealthy and litigious parents, aside from results being how they ultimately derive their income?!

Of course they don't run good schools just because they are scared of litigation by wealthy parents! The schools would be rubbish within five years if they had to constantly adjust to please various wealthy and litigious parents,.which are a myth actually, the vast majority of independent school parents maybe wealthy but aren't litigious and trust the school to do a good job

If people are going to say "go on interviews, assessments", etc., then that's completely negated the point of having A-levels in the first place.

That is exactly the approach several world class universities take every year. Some of the American ones have even scrapped some of their requirements to submit standardised test scores, because there is mounting evidence that the tests are more a measure of privilege than a measure of aptitude.

Perhaps Britain's world class universities will need to treat admission as more than a box-ticking exercise that focuses myopically (IMO) on exam grades. Who knows.

@Preech,

'Can you honestly know for sure they haven't? Do you have close relationships with every single 18 year old who sat A-levels in this country? You're assuming just as much as I am.'

That is not how it works. No one can comment on individual pupils, but cohorts behave statistically.

There is no rational explanation based on teaching or pupil intelligence that would suggest that pupils with some of the most disrupted education achieved far better than any previous cohort.

It is a shame for everyone that the process has been so distorted, and I think OFQUAL and the boards could have done a lot better (exams with more choices of what questions to answer, for instance). However, there was never going to be a perfect system and employers will take the COVID years A level results with a pinch of salt.

Well if half of candidates are worthy of an A, an A isn’t worthy.

I don’t have a close relationship with every single 18 year old but I know a lot of 18 year olds and to suggest half of them are A/A level competent would have normally been ridiculous. Clearly it’s going to be a case of “if Joe is capable of an A, then Billy must be capable of an A.” But Joe and Billy are both together. No one can tell the difference between Joe or Billy.

I find it really disappointing that so many posters genuinely expect only 10-20% of their youths to be highly intelligent and capable people, and are genuinely upset that a new way of measuring aptitude might indicate otherwise.

Only 10-20% of humans are highly intelligent, half the population has an IQ in double figures. This is fact of life. As has been discussed, intelligence and aptitude aren’t the same thing. But it’s disbelief that A level assessment has no way of discerning between the aptitude of 50% of the candidates that undertake it.

Getting 3 x As at a level has never meant you are super intelligent

@Bryonyshcmyony,

'The schools would be rubbish within five years if they had to constantly adjust to please various wealthy and litigious parents'.

There are a few famous public schools with long waiting lists (St Pauls, Wesminster, Eton, Kings etc) who can do what they will, as if parents pull their children out, there will always be another waiting to take their place.

However, the vast majority of fee paying schools do accommodate what, on average, the parents want from them. It does not make them 'rubbish' as most parents want good grades and well rounded children anyway. However, it probably does make them more likely to 'spoon feed than state schools. This is part of the reason why state school pupils with identical A level results do better than private school pupils in their degree classification (this is a fact, which I can evidence if you like).

'The vast majority of independent school parents maybe wealthy but aren't litigious and trust the school to do a good job'

On the whole, I would agree here, although I might contend with the word 'vast'. Most parents are lovely and leave the school to it. However, it only takes a minority to influence a school. Litigation over grades is a time consuming nightmare for schools. They would rather overstate grades a bit (not ridiculously, to make themselves look foolish) to avoid it.

Maybe not. But no one average, or slack or dumb ever got 3 x As.

Ime those who do well at A level and GCSE tend to be those with a good work ethic and self-discipline rather than necessarily the most intelligent.

Nevertheless, these are very positive attitudes for future work and study and DC who put in the work and effort deserve to have that reflected in their grades compared to those who don’t.

@NotBadConsidering not half of 18 year olds, half of those who completed A levels this year, not the same thing

By all means take a long look at the private sector where many of these checks were not in place

Hmmm…,you’re a teacher and are questioning the professionalism of your colleagues in the private sector? I can’t speak for all private schools, obviously, but the idea that we were somehow incapable of applying a fair system, of using grade boundaries, of moderation, or that we weren’t subject to the same potential exam board scrutinies as state schools is professionally insulting, don’t you think?

@Bryonyshcmyony,

3x A at A levels in the 60s to 80s implied you were really quite bright! In the competitive private school I went to many years ago, only a handful of pupils got a clean sweep of As.

How old are you, by the way?

@TrampolineForMrKite interestingly I sat O-levels and DH, who is a few years younger than me, sat GCSEs. When we have discussed the differences in the exams and our schooling, he does feel somewhat cheated as he feels there was much more rigour in my O-levels, and he would have been challenged more (he was a straight A student)

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Bryonyshcmyony,

3x A at A levels in the 60s to 80s implied you were really quite bright! In the competitive private school I went to many years ago, only a handful of pupils got a clean sweep of As.

How old are you, by the way?[/quote]
Aren't we talking about the last few years?

What's the point of talking about what 3 x As meant in the 80s?!

@Getawaywithit

By all means take a long look at the private sector where many of these checks were not in place

Hmmm…,you’re a teacher and are questioning the professionalism of your colleagues in the private sector? I can’t speak for all private schools, obviously, but the idea that we were somehow incapable of applying a fair system, of using grade boundaries, of moderation, or that we weren’t subject to the same potential exam board scrutinies as state schools is professionally insulting, don’t you think?

Insulting and not true!

[quote dollybird]@NotBadConsidering not half of 18 year olds, half of those who completed A levels this year, not the same thing[/quote]
Yes of course. But I know a lot of 18 year olds who have sat A levels or will soon and there’s no way half of them were/are worthy of As.

How on earth do you know that?!

@Bryonyshcmyony,

'Getting 3 x As at a level has never meant you are super intelligent'

'Aren't we talking about the last few years?

What's the point of talking about what 3 x As meant in the 80s?!'

Apologies for my misunderstanding. I thought 'never' implied more than the last few years....

No my apologies it does read like thst but it's not what I meant.