A level grades

[DolphinFC]

If feel that value of an A grade ar A level has been reduced dramatically. I feel truly sorry for those very bright, hard-working students who would've got an A grade no matter what. Their deserved A grade is now lost in a pile of undeserved A grades.

Herecomesthesun Do you not think any of the potential reasons offered so far hold up? The differences in amount of online learning offered? The differences in personal circumstances with technology, space, caring needs etc? The differences between schools who followed govt advice to suspend the curriculum and those who didn't? The differences in the amount of bubble popping and isolation disruption? The pupils have been on an even less level playing field than normal so the differences in results are likely to be even bigger

I think there are some that think private schools awarded As to all, even those who should have got Ds (not that anyone has got a D at dds private school for years if ever!) because the parents told them to.

@blameitonthecaffeine I certainly think that a study needs to be done to see why there is such a difference between independent and state sector, and the increase in grades across all schools, and whether any changes should be implemented going forward.

According to the BBC private schools only make up 16% of A-level students, so there are still a high percentage of students in state schools getting A grades.

I’m not saying that half are not suitable for university degrees. That’s not what the results say. The results say that half are exceptional and suitable for highly exceptional academically difficult degrees. Anyone with any A level result above a U has always been able to find a uni course somewhere in something. But these results suggest that half of 18 year olds are eligible for the most difficult access courses around. It’s not about making them eligible for university all together it’s about how these results suggest their eligible for the high academic, difficult end of university. Half of all 18 year olds.

I see what you're saying, but already a lot of teachers have already said that comparing this year's cohort to last year's, let alone to 2019 or further back, is comparing apples to oranges. The tools to measure aptitude are completely different, and I don't see any argument solidly in favor of the old method versus the new one. For instance, changing the A grade minimum score by a few points in a given exam year, without warning to the people taking these exams, seems like a way to limit degree applicants rather than a way to adequately prepare young people for the next step in their educations or careers.

You're looking at figures on a line graph as though those figures all have the same parameters. They're results taken from completely different measuring methods.

@Bryonyshcmyony

And if the same oversight, why was their increase in A grades so much greater than state selective schools, who almost by definition have very able and motivated pupils?

Less disruption to teaching?

*@NotBadConsidering and how would anyone begin to pick the A students that you have that conversation with? That was what the eye roll was for.

If the universities are happy to let them in then perhaps they'll all do better than you think.

Well as I’ve said, there must be teachers who are raising an eyebrow at some of the results they’ve seen on teenagers they know. But it’s probably too late now, they’ve all technically left school.

Some might do better. It’s pie in the sky thinking to think they all will. Some of them in the lower end of the centile for an A will get to uni for certain courses and find themselves surrounded by all the other people from other schools who also got As who are academically much better and find themselves out of their depth, with uni lecturers who aren’t prepared to mark any differently to how they’ve always done. It’s ridiculous to think we’ve somehow unearthed a cohort of young adults that would have otherwise languished under the constraints of the old system and have now been presented with an opportunity that would otherwise been lost, and they’ll all do amazing. Some have no doubt benefited with merit (exam anxiety etc), but who’s kidding themselves that they all have?

[quote ineedaholidaynow]@blameitonthecaffeine I certainly think that a study needs to be done to see why there is such a difference between independent and state sector, and the increase in grades across all schools, and whether any changes should be implemented going forward.

According to the BBC private schools only make up 16% of A-level students, so there are still a high percentage of students in state schools getting A grades.[/quote]
Well, OK, do a study, but private schools have been getting more A and A* grades than the state sector for years, so it's gone up proportionally, possibly a bit more for the reasons repeated many times on this thread. They aren't cheating, so maybe yes, we could learn something from them, although that thing is probably that wealthy families often do better educationally which is hardly news.

I mean, in 2019 our local state got 27% A and A* and dds private school got 58%, so it's hardly new

Honestly nearly 50% of our students this year are NOT A and A material. if you want to give them this because they have had a tough time fine but they really arent

How would you know?

Is the high school education system in this country really so poor that not even half of your students can retain the majority of what they're taught? That should be urgently addressed.

@Bryonyshcmyony,

I believe the average private school pupil has cognitive scores about 10 points higher than the national average. This clearly accounts for some of the gap, as does smaller class sizes and more support in general.

However, this year, teachers in private schools are under immense pressure to grade as high as possible. It is classic ‘games theory’. You might want to grade ‘fairly’ but if you feel your competition will grade generously, then you feel obliged to follow suit to not give them a competitive advantage.

@preech,

I assume you are not in education!

To retain the majority of what you are taught at A level, you need more than just memory. No, the majority of students are not worth an A or A*.

@blameitonthecaffeine

And if the same oversight, why was their increase in A grades so much greater than state selective schools, who almost by definition have very able and motivated pupils

Herecomesthesun Do you not think any of the potential reasons offered so far hold up? The differences in amount of online learning offered? The differences in personal circumstances with technology, space, caring needs etc? The differences between schools who followed govt advice to suspend the curriculum and those who didn't? The differences in the amount of bubble popping and isolation disruption? The pupils have been on an even less level playing field than normal so the differences in results are likely to be even bigger.

The difference isn't just state v private. The BBC was highlighting the differences in North v South too.

Maybe instead of berating different systems, this year could be used as a wake up to try and find ways to narrow the gap in educational opportunity. But I don't know if that's possible or not.

Do you not think any of the potential reasons offered so far hold up?

Not really ,no, not to account entirely for the discrepancy.

I don't see how there was so much more grade inflation in private schools than in selective state schools, where there are a lot of very able pupils, who might get A grades, or be borderline.

I think on the other hand it is very likely that some independent schools would be more motivated to interpret the evidence more leniently.

It would be interesting to know how much reviewing of these results actually went on behind the scenes.

Does that get published, how many scripts were checked and from which sectors etc?

It is classic ‘games theory’. You might want to grade ‘fairly’ but if you feel your competition will grade generously, then you feel obliged to follow suit to not give them a competitive advantage.

Indeed. Unless it is a school which is refusing to do that on principle, and has very carefully lined up this year's results with the results from the last 5 years.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@preech,

I assume you are not in education!

To retain the majority of what you are taught at A level, you need more than just memory. No, the majority of students are not worth an A or A*.[/quote]

Then that's a shame.

Preech

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say you don’t think there is a group of school leavers who have come out of this on the lucky side? Do you genuinely think that every single 18 year old A level student across the country has been allocated the grades they 100% deserve on merit?

@Preech an A grade is not the only grade to pass an exam, but to me (as someone who took exams when an A grade was not the norm, about 10% of students achieved them) to see nearly 50% of students get them, in a year when many students missed so much face to face teaching, I would like to see educationalists explain why this has happened, and if it shows that this way of grading students is a more realistic measure of their attainment, then surely it makes sense to carry forward some of the lessons learned (excuse the pun!).

If it shows that using more technology in lessons is a good thing, then that needs to be addressed in certain areas of the state sector where this did not happen in the last 15 months. If it shows that doing regular assessments, as well as looking at other types of work that students have done over the course of 2 years to grade a student is best, then maybe the format of A-levels and GCSEs need to be looked at, if they are not demonstrating the majority of students' abilities.

"While private schools saw a larger absolute increase in top grades, Ofqual said that other types of state schools had a bigger relative increase in these grades.

This is because the schools had a lower percentage getting top grades to start with, meaning a smaller increase in absolute terms is still proportionally bigger in relative terms. For example, further education establishments saw a 21.4 per cent increase in grades at A and comprehensives an 18.7 per cent increase, while the rise was 15.2 per cent for private schools.

In its analysis of results, Ofqual said private schools had scored more A*s and As because they already had results “clustered around the top grades”.

“In normal years, the distribution of grades for students attending independent centres is clustered around the top grades”, it said.

“A uniform increase in grades awarded across all types of school and college is therefore most likely to benefit students attending independent schools at the top grades.

“For other centre types, the impact of increased grades may be lower down the grade distribution – wherever most of their candidates are normally clustered.”

Ofqual added that exam boards had “looked at student work from all types of school and college as part of the external quality assurance process”.

“They did not find that any type of school or college was more likely than others to have provided grades that did not reflect the standard of their students’ work. Indeed, they found that, irrespective of the type of school or college, the grades were largely supported by the quality of students’ work."

@herecomesthsun

@herecomesthsun,

And then they will lose out on next year’s intake.

They cannot go too wild as all grades have to be evidenced, but they can interpret the evidence as positively as possible, as they virtually all have.

They are caught between potentially being embarrassed by the boards and litigious parents. And this is what they see as the compromise point.

To be fair, the whole exercise has been a nightmare for schools (regardless what sector) and candidates.

But, as long as Unis can cope, and COVID is over by degree time, it will all just disappear as meaningless data points on a CV.

@Bryonyshcmyony,

What else are OFQUAL and the boards going to say?!

The boards want the money (for doing v little) and OFQUAL is hardly going to talk about the deeply flawed nature of their own process..

@Bryonyshcmyony

That doesn't explain why selective state schools (with on average, possibly more able pupils, who normally get a load of As and A*s) had, relatively, such a lower level of increase compared with independent schools.

There is a very neat explanation - marking bias - for that and I am wondering what the hard evidence is against it.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Bryonyshcmyony,

What else are OFQUAL and the boards going to say?!

The boards want the money (for doing v little) and OFQUAL is hardly going to talk about the deeply flawed nature of their own process..[/quote]
Well if you don't believe the numbers you don't believe the numbers!

It seems extraordinary that people can know that schools shut completely in march 2020 and many state schools did very little if anything that term, whereas most independent schools immediately went online, and then wonder why the results from the private schools are better?!

Also, more able students are more likely to study effectively independently which also helps

more able students are more likely to study effectively independently which also helps

Making it even more puzzling that independent schools apparently did better than state selectives.

As someone who got an A grade back in the very early noughties, I remember being told by older relatives that they “got an A when it really meant something”. One relative even claimed that the B he got in A Level English Lit in 1987 was equivalent to the A I got in 2002. I thought he was a prick at the time and think anyone still spouting this nonsense is a prick now.

[quote herecomesthsun]@Bryonyshcmyony

That doesn't explain why selective state schools (with on average, possibly more able pupils, who normally get a load of As and A*s) had, relatively, such a lower level of increase compared with independent schools.

There is a very neat explanation - marking bias - for that and I am wondering what the hard evidence is against it.[/quote]
Did grammar schools teach through the first lockdown (I genuinely don't know!)?

@Bryonyshcmyony,

If you read the long OFQUAL guidance for grades, you will see that the grading process is meant to take out the effect of disrupted learning.

You are meant to choose 3-5 pieces of evidence for grading and you could also set final assessments which omitted the topics covered in the missed learning.

Nothing is perfect, but the whole process was designed around eliminating the bias of the
differential quality of remote learning.

@herecomesthsun

more able students are more likely to study effectively independently which also helps

Making it even more puzzling that independent schools apparently did better than state selectives.

Not really, as I expect wealthier homes were easier to study in

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Bryonyshcmyony,

If you read the long OFQUAL guidance for grades, you will see that the grading process is meant to take out the effect of disrupted learning.

You are meant to choose 3-5 pieces of evidence for grading and you could also set final assessments which omitted the topics covered in the missed learning.

Nothing is perfect, but the whole process was designed around eliminating the bias of the
differential quality of remote learning.[/quote]
OK. I still think having 18 months of uninterrupted education is going to have been beneficial to students. Or are we suggesting that made no difference at all?