If your young teen tells you to fuck off...

[FedupFuckedoff]

...how do you respond/what do you do? Dc has apologised but said I deserved it. I said something that could have been phrased better but I have ASD and sometimes my mouth bypasses my brain. I've apologised for my poor choice of words. It was a comment on one of her friendships that is very on and off and they fall out most days and I said something to that effect. It didn't warrant being told to fuck off.
Nc for this.

@Kralia

Jesus indeed. More than one person advocating withdrawing all affection and attention when a child does something wrong. You are the adults supposed to be teaching your kids emotional regulation and self-respect - what does it tell them if you instead behave like a petulant toddler? So bloody depressing.

Sorry but I am allowed to have a different opinion to you thank you very much. I have two teens at home who can be quite forthright in their opinions and when they express them respectfully, they are listened to very respectfully in turn.

You can explain in triplicate all you like to teens about why they should not be swearing but they often don't take a blind bit of notice and long discussions can lead to more friction and argument, which they have all the time in the world to engage in. What I have found in reality is that a far better strategy is stepping slightly back, not volunteering help, not being as available to them, not showing as much interest as usual in their day, is a much better way of getting my point across. It is not petulant in the least but a quiet and calm way of getting my point across. As we all know, you often can't change how people behave, but you can change how you react to them. And in my household at least, this tactic works.

I’ve had this .. it’s not nice

We were having problems with DD in her early teens, she had always seemed a bit anxious, but it was getting worse and worse, when I tried to get her to do stuff she she would fly into a rage - terrible times

Anyway, just after first lockdown she was due to go back into Y10, and had some sort of mental health breakdown … we accessed services, and she’s been identified as High Functioning Autism … her rages were panic attacks, I didn’t recognise this and mismanaged them.

I used to wonder what Taking her electronics away or anything else didn’t work - and now I know ! We got on really well now, her mental health is much better, we are accessing services, we have such a good relationship now. I can’t see a time when she would use that sort of language to me.

Not to minimise other people’s experiences, but it’s not always about them being out of control or naughty.

She refuses to engage in services. I've tried and tried and she's now been discharged as she won't go.

@ExtraOnions that sounds so familiar but as I said in my post, she just won't engage. Refuses to even think she might be autistic, claims she has mental health issues but won't see the mental health team, and I get accused of trying to medicalise her normal teenage emotions by some of the professionals who were involved. Do you have any strategies that work well? I'll try anything to help her.

I'd have had a slapped bum for speaking to my DM like that and frankly, my kids would get the same, disrespecting me in my own bloody house like that.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut
Ah yes, let's just go around hitting children. That'll definitely make OPs daughter feel so much better when she's already struggling as it is

"That was totally unnecessary."

"I wouldn't say that to you."

• You deserved it.

"Are you sure? How would you feel if I said that to you?" -I don't care what you say to me. "Well you should care. People who live in the same household should be polite to each other."

I suppose all of that is basic "Aren't you ashamed of your behaviour?" messaging. I don't think I'm very persuasive, but I am possibly good at pointing out to them when they have violated our shared or just their own principles about how to treat other people.

Other times I might just banish them from my sight "if you aren't prepared to be civil than I don't want your company right now." That's a pretty nuclear option from me, I rarely make myself explicitly unavailable.

I’m a bit bemused by some comments here.

Do any 13 year old’s really need it explained to them that swearing at your mother, never mind aggressively, in any context- is unacceptable? Let alone needing to explain why it would be so. I’d be very surprised if a 13 year old did not know that it was wrong to swear at their mother, and why.

As for “just accept her apology”. Why? I would not accept an apology which basically said “you deserved being spoken to like that”. It’s not an apology, for a start. It’s also virtually never acceptable to aggressively swear at anybody. So she is either not sorry at all and thinks she behaved reasonably, or is too stubborn to admit it. Neither would be acceptable in my home. A proper apology would be accepted, anything less would not. Why should I accept an insincere apology? That’s disrespectful- apologise meaningfully, or don’t if you don’t believe you are in the wrong. But then you must accept the consequences of that choice. Don’t insult me with a non-apology and expect the issue to go away like it never happened. What does that teach them?

I think OP is right to raise concerns about this friendship, if she has them. At her daughter’s age, I think it entirely appropriate for a parent to say that they think a friendship isn’t working well/a friend isn’t behaving nicely or any other concerns they have. OP has said that it came out wrong, and has already apologised for that- but do some parents honestly believe they can’t say anything negative about their children’s friendships “in case it upsets them”? I have vastly more experience than my children- if I notice an issue, I will raise it with them. There are very few situations where I would try and put a stop to a friendship, but if I see something is not right/they aren’t being treated well/friendship is bringing out the worst in both parties etc- then I reserve the right to say so. They might not like it, but at 13 years old I’m afraid I don’t think they should just be given free rein when it comes to friendships- I think it’s perfectly fine for a parent to say “I don’t think this friendship is good for you....”. I would expect that my DC might not be happy that I expressed concern/disapproval, but I would expect them to keep a civil tongue in their head at all times. I don’t swear at them, or anyone else in the household. I expect the same from all members of the household in return.

“Taking away their Wi-fi will just make them resentful, so I wouldn’t do that”. What? God forbid a teen should be unhappy about a negative consequence for bad behaviour! Do you only give punishments that your children won’t be put up nor down by? If so, what is the point? I’d look on it as a salient reminder that privileges are not a right. Why on earth should I give privileges, luxuries or put myself out by giving lifts etc to a teen who is rude , aggressive and disrespectful towards me? I wouldn’t tolerate that sort of behaviour from a partner, adult family member, friend or work colleague, so I’m certainly not going to tolerate it from a teen DC. It’s not simply a punishment, it’s a consequence for unacceptable conduct. Children, especially younger teens, need to understand that their actions have consequences.

OP I am guessing you also played a big part in the hostilities.

It’s about respect, if you condone it through your actions it will continue.

I would recommend a clear sanction - whether than be grounding, removal of privileges/money/WiFi etc

At our school, telling a teacher to fuck off would be an exclusion because it is about respect.

Everyone says things they don’t mean at times, and that is a conversation for later - after the sanction. Sanctioning your daughter is important so she understands boundaries. She might be annoyed (what teenager isn’t) but she needs to know where the line is in the sand

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

I'm autistic too, and I have a 12 year old. If he told me to fuck off I'd be confiscating electronics and telling him he wasn't going out to see friends until I had a proper apology. Saying you deserved it isnt an apology.

As for her other behaviour, is it possible she has asd too? I was undiagnosed as a teen, and this was exactly how I behaved. Puberty, bullying, and my parents splitting up made me seek attention in whatever way I could. I'd lie to my dad about how awful my mum was, and run away regularly. It wasn't because my mum was actually awful but because I was struggling to deal with life and I just didn't know what else to do. My mum had 3 other kids to look after and my dad was pretty shit so I dodnt get the attention I felt I deserved, even though like you, we'd go out on days out etc. I felt like life should have been better IYSWIM. Everything felt like it was spiralling g out of control at that time for me.

I was going to suggest as you have asd could she have it?

The reason being that my son has asd. He also struggles with the opinions thing. It's far too complex for him. He's afraid to give an opinion because he's afraid it'll be wrong. He can deal in facts only.

*I’m a bit bemused by some comments here.

Do any 13 year old’s really need it explained to them that swearing at your mother, never mind aggressively, in any context- is unacceptable? Let alone needing to explain why it would be so. I’d be very surprised if a 13 year old did not know that it was wrong to swear at their mother, and why.

As for “just accept her apology”. Why? I would not accept an apology which basically said “you deserved being spoken to like that”. It’s not an apology, for a start. It’s also virtually never acceptable to aggressively swear at anybody. So she is either not sorry at all and thinks she behaved reasonably, or is too stubborn to admit it. Neither would be acceptable in my home. A proper apology would be accepted, anything less would not. Why should I accept an insincere apology? That’s disrespectful- apologise meaningfully, or don’t if you don’t believe you are in the wrong. But then you must accept the consequences of that choice. Don’t insult me with a non-apology and expect the issue to go away like it never happened. What does that teach them?

I think OP is right to raise concerns about this friendship, if she has them. At her daughter’s age, I think it entirely appropriate for a parent to say that they think a friendship isn’t working well/a friend isn’t behaving nicely or any other concerns they have. OP has said that it came out wrong, and has already apologised for that- but do some parents honestly believe they can’t say anything negative about their children’s friendships “in case it upsets them”? I have vastly more experience than my children- if I notice an issue, I will raise it with them. There are very few situations where I would try and put a stop to a friendship, but if I see something is not right/they aren’t being treated well/friendship is bringing out the worst in both parties etc- then I reserve the right to say so. They might not like it, but at 13 years old I’m afraid I don’t think they should just be given free rein when it comes to friendships- I think it’s perfectly fine for a parent to say “I don’t think this friendship is good for you....”. I would expect that my DC might not be happy that I expressed concern/disapproval, but I would expect them to keep a civil tongue in their head at all times. I don’t swear at them, or anyone else in the household. I expect the same from all members of the household in return.

“Taking away their Wi-fi will just make them resentful, so I wouldn’t do that”. What? God forbid a teen should be unhappy about a negative consequence for bad behaviour! Do you only give punishments that your children won’t be put up nor down by? If so, what is the point? I’d look on it as a salient reminder that privileges are not a right. Why on earth should I give privileges, luxuries or put myself out by giving lifts etc to a teen who is rude , aggressive and disrespectful towards me? I wouldn’t tolerate that sort of behaviour from a partner, adult family member, friend or work colleague, so I’m certainly not going to tolerate it from a teen DC. It’s not simply a punishment, it’s a consequence for unacceptable conduct. Children, especially younger teens, need to understand that their actions have consequences.*

You don't have teenagers do you, nor do you appear to have any actual understanding of teens brain rewiring so that in a lot of aspects they basically become giant toddlers again. You're in for a bit of a shock

I also came back to suggest ASD too, we've had this with our DD & more. It's not bad behaviour, it's a meltdown & as such isn't something they can control in their safe space.

[quote FedupFuckedoff]@ExtraOnions that sounds so familiar but as I said in my post, she just won't engage. Refuses to even think she might be autistic, claims she has mental health issues but won't see the mental health team, and I get accused of trying to medicalise her normal teenage emotions by some of the professionals who were involved. Do you have any strategies that work well? I'll try anything to help her. [/quote]
We got some great advice … I’m luckily that one of my relatives works for a provider (in particular for young people who have struggle in mainstream)

First thing she advised was not to take her electronics away as punishment, just leads to greater conflict.
Don’t try to rationalise if they are having a panic attack / meltdown - their primitive brains have taken over, you have to wait for rational brain to come back
Build a relationship outside of the conflict … my DD gets obsessions, so we chat about that (regardless of how dull I may find it)
Don’t try to control everything - my big thing was that she wasn’t going to school … and I just needed to learn to shut up about it … she knows why education is important, she’ll do it when she is ready
I had to change my “expectations” about how to parent, and about her ….no point in continually stick a square peg in a round hole.

She had a mental health crisis last year, a real depression .. it was very very hard. She spent a lot of time continually thinking “what’s wrong with me”, and making herself so miserable. The possibility of ASD (we are going through assessment), has calmed her right down …

"stepping slightly back, not volunteering help, not being as available to them, not showing as much interest as usual in their day, is a much better way of getting my point across"

I apologise - I unfairly lumped you in with the person upthread who advocated effectively completely ignoring the child. I get that a natural consequence of swearing at someone is going to be that you don't get your life to town, or whatever.

But it's where it tips into denial of affection that it gets problematic for me. I had a parent who did guilt and withdrawal of affection as her primary control tactics. I was a stupendously well-behaved teen. But it has long-term detrimental effects - it promotes inveterate people-pleasing, low self-esteem and constant seeking of approval. We need to keep speaking to our teens, and if we tip into punitive shutdown then communication is broken. That's counterproductive imo.

My father would have knocked me across the room for less.

@SingingInTheShithouse

Well, you’d be utterly incorrect. I have 3 DC. Eldest is 16. My children all have their moments, but none of them have ever aggressively sworn at me. If they did, I would not be impressed and they would be left in no doubt of that. Like most children/teens, they do cross lines sometimes, and when they do, they have to live with the consequences.

I don’t subscribe to the belief that teenagers cannot be expected to behave decently/respectfully and to control themselves. They can, it might not be easy and they might get it wrong sometimes. But I don’t think it’s a case of CANNOT. And by the age of 13 they can- or should- know that aggressively swearing at their mother (or anyone else, for that matter) is utterly unacceptable. If they do it anyway, they should not be surprised that there are consequences that they may not like for such behaviour. I don’t tailor the consequences for unacceptable behaviour to only be things that won’t annoy/frustrate/upset them. What’s the point in that?

I don’t swear at any member of the household. I expect the same in return. My DC know that telling me to fuck off is absolutely not on and there will be consequences of unacceptable behaviour. They know apologies are only meaningful if sincere. They know “non-apologies” won’t be accepted. They are free to make that choice.... but if they do that, they must also take the consequences of that decision. The consequence is that privileges will be withdrawn or that I will not continue to do things that are not necessary for them- e.g. give lifts, taking them to or paying for additional activities. Actions have consequences- luxuries and extras are privileges and not rightfully theirs. Bad behaviour can lead to some (or all, depending on scale) of these being removed. If you are rude to me, then no, I am not going to take several hours out of my day ferrying you about, for instance.

"My father would have knocked me across the room for less."

And you now advocate knocking kids across a room as a good parenting strategy?! Note that 'effective' and 'good' are two entirely different things. We could all get our kids to behave by making them shit scared of us. The more difficult task is to bring up well-behaved kids without crushing either their body or their spirits!

Cut off the Wi-Fi as previous post suggests.

Only engage when you decide too.

@Kralia

"My father would have knocked me across the room for less."

And you now advocate knocking kids across a room as a good parenting strategy?! Note that 'effective' and 'good' are two entirely different things. We could all get our kids to behave by making them shit scared of us. The more difficult task is to bring up well-behaved kids without crushing either their body or their spirits!

You need to back off and stop suggesting the previous Post suggested Violence. The Poster was clearly stating what her Father would have done in days gone by, nowhere in that post does she suggest OP do this..

In which case you have both been lucky & have no actual relevant experience to the OPs (& the rest of us) experiences. You sound judgemental & to presume weak parenting & people swearing in front of DCs, when that isn't actually the case at all & you have just been very lucky that it isn't something you've had to deal with yet ... & I say yet as mine didn't swear at me until 17.

She was an absolute broken stressed suicidal anxious mess at the time she did though. I found that out because I talked to her like the young adult she is, not because I treat her like a child & punished her for having a meltdown.

Should I have come down hard on her & punished her when she clearly wasn't coping, what exactly would that have achieved bar to make what turned out to be a suicidal teen feel even less like she had any support she could rely on to understand & support her 🤷‍♀️

Queenbee so why is she saying it? We all know violence used to be common in childrearing, but what possible bearing does the comment have on the OPs situation?

@Kralia

Queenbee so why is she saying it? We all know violence used to be common in childrearing, but what possible bearing does the comment have on the OPs situation?

because that is not what she said..... YOU suggested her post implied she use violence.. her post said NO such thing.

@ThePlantsitter

An apology that says you deserved it is not an apology.

Agree with this

I also think that a very aggressive and intended F Off is quite different from a testing boundaries / still learning / showing off F Off. For the latter, I would still remonstrate, but the former is a bigger issue

"YOU suggested her post implied she use violence"

Eh? I did no such thing! I asked her whether she was giving the example of what her dad did as one to follow, because that's what it sounded like. At no point did I say anything about whether or not she used violence herself as a parent .

If we could back off with the aggressive capitals, that would be good...