If it’s that bad, why aren’t we panicking more??

[Nightgardenisodd]

Climate change.
I keep reading posts about it and it’s scaring the crap out of me for my DD’s future.
How bad is it? Anyone have any positivity about it?

@Tealightsandd many cultures do not value educating girls so many leave school much younger than boys. They are then rarely economically active and have bigger families at a younger age.

@iseeu there has been a see change across business and government over the last five years and this is accelerating all the time.

Environmental pressure groups notoriously demand the impossible, and your own comment that some industries need to cease are equally unhelpful.

The truth is that planting a few wild flowers or using bar soapis not going to even make a dent in global warming, in our house we do both but we are realistic on impact these have. Shifting ALL responsibility away from the individual or household just won't work.

@ArielBlue I think very poor families are spending most of their energy surviving. I was very poor when a child - a lot of time and energy goes on worrying about the next meal and paying bills and having enough money for basics and getting to school etc.

I also think cynically that the poorer families and communities aroudn the world are intentionally targeted. The thing is - it is all very well us all making greener choices in goods but if the goods are still being produced - and they are - that is an awful lot of "stuff" - electrical goods, mobiles, etc - which is already made -and ends up on rubbish piles. Like the example I used above - mobile contracts often include regular free upgrades, and they tell you to just get rid of the phones you are upgrading from - that is a lot of unused phones. Sometimes things get sold on and on to poorer and poorer communities and ultimately end up rubbish tips. Which is why I think it needs to change at the top, regulations about the production of goods. This then conflicts with desires for a free market, and it becomes political.

arielblue - I have just seen that pepper said similar things about poorer communities

@Daftasabroom I am not sure which demands from environmental groups you are talking about so I cannot comment, I am not a part of an environmental group and as I said I don't support what our local groups say and do. I also said that individuals choosing to do what they can is happening and of course is good so you are sort of misquoting me there. But I think you are very badly misinformed if you think that it is incorrect that certain activites have to cease - for example:

• massive overproduction of electrical goods and mobiles with short life spans - are you saying that should continue and that it is unrealistic to stop that happening?

• fishing practices where huge boats catch fish and prepare fish on the boat ready for selling in tins and frozen etc - they currently (still) gather up huge amounts of sea life and plants which they cannot use and chuck it back in the sea dead - this has had a devastating effect on biodiversity, acidification, ultimately climate damage for decades.

You think that this should continue? Yes it is helpful for posters to be passing comment on these i

• oil practices, transport, refinery - should all continue as they are?

Yes I realise that most of these issues are politically challenging to deal with. But see my quote from the CCC you linked - this does not show the promising progress you refer to I don't think - I would be really interested to hear more specifics which show that I am wrong. What changes have been made in the last 5 years which you refer to?

Text in the wrong place - "Yes it is helpful for posters to be passing comment on these i" - I thought I had deleted that as I didn't want to get bogged down in it

Re comments about poorer families

I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I know lots of working class folk who are just starting to wake up to the climate crisis. They want to do something. But the environmental charities are not reaching out to them. Don’t talk their language.

Working class is not necessarily poor btw.

@PickUpAPepper when you say Perhaps it is something to do with the way established middle class people who haven’t really known what it is to live worrying about where their next meal is coming from persisting in blaming poorer people for the damage? I have just realised that you might have thought I was blaming - in fact I was saying that poorer families do not have choices, they end up buying the cheap with short life span as it is all they can afford in the moment. In relation to poor communities with tvs and mobiles I meant that because of overproduction of goods the goods eventually get sold for very little. I wasn't talking about the uk though.

@ArielBlue

Re comments about poorer families

I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I know lots of working class folk who are just starting to wake up to the climate crisis. They want to do something. But the environmental charities are not reaching out to them. Don’t talk their language.

Oh I see - yes I agree, WC doesn't mean poor. I also see what you mean about environmental groups in the UK being more MC. I live in France at the moment and our environmental groups sound very different where I am!! Sorry I misunderstood you

In relation to reaching out more, I think it is really difficult generally as you have to look for info from decent sources. I think having more clear objective info about what damage has been done and what has caused it would help? Posters with photos? But I do also think, personally, that the more info is put out there, the more people will realise that it needs to change from above as the top priority.

@iseeu you're building a bit of straw man there. Of course I don't think any of those are okay, but they are not the big hitters.

The biggest single contribution any individual or organisation can make is to reduce energy consumption. The first step on that ladder is to measure your energy use.

daft I think you have misunderstood what a strawman argument is, but in any event, it seems you do agree that the activities are "not okay" ie you do now agree they need to cease, which is slightly different from what you said in your post - but that you don't think they are big hitters - is that right? I did address your subject, you just think I am focusing on the wrong thing?

As to whether they are the big hitters, I disagree with you. I think that they are big hitters, or examples of big hitters, as there are many more. They form part of the top priorities for change in my opinion. You are free to disagree.

@iseeu could you quantify the GWP of bottom trawling?

I think one of the issues surrounding the whole global warming debate is there is just too much opinion which tends to override the facts.

Energy generation for commercial and domestic buildings accounts for over 17.5% of all emissions. How much does bottom trawling contribute?

One of the difficulties in becoming more sustainable is that the things that are going to make a difference are capital intensive. It's much easier for instance to go vegan than to upgrade your home to passive standards. Which to my mind really answers the OP, we don't need to panic but we ALL need to be aware of what needs to be done.

[quote iseeu]@ArielBlue I think very poor families are spending most of their energy surviving. I was very poor when a child - a lot of time and energy goes on worrying about the next meal and paying bills and having enough money for basics and getting to school etc.

I also think cynically that the poorer families and communities aroudn the world are intentionally targeted. The thing is - it is all very well us all making greener choices in goods but if the goods are still being produced - and they are - that is an awful lot of "stuff" - electrical goods, mobiles, etc - which is already made -and ends up on rubbish piles. Like the example I used above - mobile contracts often include regular free upgrades, and they tell you to just get rid of the phones you are upgrading from - that is a lot of unused phones. Sometimes things get sold on and on to poorer and poorer communities and ultimately end up rubbish tips. Which is why I think it needs to change at the top, regulations about the production of goods. This then conflicts with desires for a free market, and it becomes political.[/quote]
You’re right @iseeu

The poor, the migrants, the bottom of society are always blamed for societies failings, to detract attention from the true culprits.

We all need to take responsibility for climate change, however, there is only so much an individual can do firstly, and secondly many individuals who are focussed on surviving week to week, have limited ability to influence anything at all. Their choices in terms of shopping, consumption and life style are focussed on price not sustainability (which is more costly in many cases). That said I know many people on the bread line, and they don’t have their heating on, don’t use tumble driers, dishwashers, don’t waste food, rarely buy meat, and get the bus! Buy when it comes to Christmas, the house is stuffed full of products that are harmful to the cause both from a manufacturing viewpoint and life span.

Hammering down on global businesses which dominate and control for financial gain, that also pay peanuts, use tax loopholes, and do not give a fair playing field to local small businesses, exhasperates this issue.

If you can’t afford to replace your 15yr old car with an electric one, if you can’t afford bamboo toothbrushes, if you buy cheap packaged food instead of from your local organic market, you can’t afford to replace your windows drafts windows or old inefficient heating system etc. Then how the hell can you influence climate change positively? In addition people with low income don’t have as much time in general, which limits their ability to make certain choices.

The only sustainable thing we can all do, is do our best within our own personal circumstances and educate ourselves. Infighting detracts, government make many decisions based on global politics and economic policy which kicks the can, when we run out of time…

Why can’t I buy a solid dissolvable cleaning product I rehydrate in my existing plastic spray bottle? Why isn’t 1 serve water sold in aluminium cans as standard? We had sugar tax, where’s the plastic wrap/packaging tax?why does my organic non wrapped apple have a sticker on it? Policies need to be changed. That comes from up high.

Businesses that spout their sustainable policies should be questioned. it’s fuzzy shit most of the time.

Educating ourselves is key to pushing that agenda within our individual means, sadly which is not all equal.

Why can’t I buy a solid dissolvable cleaning product I rehydrate in my existing plastic spray bottle? Why isn’t 1 serve water sold in aluminium cans as standard?

You can buy both of these.

Don’t disagree with your post btw

It is entirely true that you need those with money to make the changes and even then it isn’t an easy choice. We are a high income family with two six figure salaries but we’ve still dithered over things like solar panels due to the cost.

[quote Daftasabroom]@iseeu could you quantify the GWP of bottom trawling?

I think one of the issues surrounding the whole global warming debate is there is just too much opinion which tends to override the facts.

Energy generation for commercial and domestic buildings accounts for over 17.5% of all emissions. How much does bottom trawling contribute?

One of the difficulties in becoming more sustainable is that the things that are going to make a difference are capital intensive. It's much easier for instance to go vegan than to upgrade your home to passive standards. Which to my mind really answers the OP, we don't need to panic but we ALL need to be aware of what needs to be done.[/quote]
@Daftasabroom I could not personally quantify the GWP of bottom trawling but I think it needs to be quatified and that information to be made public - my understanding is that directly or indirectly its contribution is huge, especially when added with the other two issues I raised. If these issues are not addressed all that will be left in the ocean in 20 years time is grass or jellyfish! The acidification of the ocean has a knock on impact on climate change.

there is just too much opinion which tends to override the facts to use your posts as examples, though - you said there were some positives, but this does not seem to be reflected in the latest ccc technical report which I quoted. Companies bricking themselves is not good enough. I don't want this to be a personal attack because I can see you believe in what you say but to me the information you have provided is this is an indication that the facts are not being analysed sufficiently.

Reading the posts here about the ‘poor’ is quite alarming!

Obviously some of you are very far removed from the realities of modern Britain and live in bubbles. There are loads of working class/ lower middle class who are not dirt poor. They can make lots of pro environmental choices, but they aren’t because NO ONE IS TALKING TO THEM! I can see why going by the replies on this thread! Total ignorance as to why the environmental movement is not mainstream in the U.K.

Sorry but you’re doomed to fail and your efforts are futile if you don’t take these people along with you.

Working class background here... live and socialise with WC people but happen to be well educated and have professional job. So have a foot in both worlds and I’m telling you the environmental movement has a diversity problem!! You need to wake up to it if you want to have any real impact on behaviour. I’ve tried but I’m only one person.

The other big issue is the lack of ethnic diversity.

So the environmental movement has a diversity problem. It’s too white and middle class to achieve the change required.

Here’s a great article if you wanna educate yourself

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/11/a-working-class-green-movement-is-out-there-but-not-getting-the-credit-it-deserves

In the Guardian lol!

@Bluebellsinparadise

Reading the posts here about the ‘poor’ is quite alarming!

Obviously some of you are very far removed from the realities of modern Britain and live in bubbles. There are loads of working class/ lower middle class who are not dirt poor. They can make lots of pro environmental choices, but they aren’t because NO ONE IS TALKING TO THEM! I can see why going by the replies on this thread! Total ignorance as to why the environmental movement is not mainstream in the U.K.

Sorry but you’re doomed to fail and your efforts are futile if you don’t take these people along with you.

@Bluebellsinparadise no one said WC were poor. I thought a poster had conflated the two things but she corrected me.

@Daftasabroom i googled gwp of bottom trawling after i posted (as i didn't know the answer when i posted) and it is an appalling read, the estimates of gwp related to bottom trawling indicate climate change disaster as a result of it. I am not sure why you are attempting to underestimate it.

@Bluebellsinparadise PS the posts about poor communities were about poor communities, around the world, but NB there is serious poverty in the UK.

As an aside, many people I went to university with originally came from working class backgrounds, but then went on to be professionals and live MC lifestyles, and so would be considered MC
now.

@iseeu I've looked into the reports and the Guardian misquotes the original study, subsequent articles then misquote the Guardian.

The study published in Nature suggests that disturbing ocean sediments could result in CO2 emissions but it makes no attempt to quantify the actual emissions that are released into the atmosphere. The Guardian and other articles seem to equate the possible total amount of carbon effusion with CO2 emissions - they are two different things.

Again I'm frustrated by well meaning misinformation by the Guardian. Yes bottom trawling is horribly damaging to the environment, but is it a major emitter of CO2, unlikely.

I've been panicking for twenty-five years, so much so I have dedicated my career to working on environment and climate, so the panic follows me 24-7 as all I see is this shit getting worse.