To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

[BFrazzled]

In the Olympics.

Poor horses. This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that?

There was one winner of the dressage contest who supposedly also won in the nineties. No mention of the horse, guess it was with a different one then

[quote sadperson16]@Thatsjustwhatithink,I agree.
Its horrible.
How the hell would you know if a horse likes this treatment, it cant actually tell you can it?[/quote]
Just wait until you hear about these people called vets, it will blow your mind!

@sadperson16

Were here because we think forcing sentient beasts into performing in unnatural ways,should be consigned to history.

Don't be daft.

@thatsjustwhatithink with every post you emphasise your ignorance and prejudices. You've already described in your own words how appalling your own riding is, although clearly going you are the bees knees. You are really in no position to criticise anyone else. Come back when you have learned to ride properly.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Earlier you said something like "pressure is not pain". That's not really right- force from a push or pull action is pressure, and it becomes pain when it passes an individual threshold. For millennium that threshold has been exactly how human have got animals to do their bidding.

For example, say your horse sees something in a field it wants go and see. You, however, want to go straight on. The horse moves left towards the object and you correct it with a slight ankle and a gentle touch of the rein. The horse is having none of it, it wants to see the object and continues left. Your 'light pressure' hasn't been enough. You do again bit harder, horse still ignores. You go again. This time the reins and pressure reach the pain threshold, as the horse continues you tug harder. If now has a choice, it stops and does your bidding and no pain. Or it continues on its own desire and gets pain. The horse will likely desist, after all no animal likes being hurt.

This is 1000s of years worth of how humans have 'trained' animals that are physically stronger than us. We used our brains to pinpoint areas that we could control. This has been done with elephants, camels you name it, humans have done it. Felines, especially large ones like lions or tigers react very differently, way more so than dogs, wild or not. Large felines have never been truely domesticated (you can only domesticate as small cat so mich as most cat owners know). Large felines get aggressive, so humans have tended to declaw, detooth, and drug. It's all about minimising the risk.

Back to horses, whilst it's moved on with different kit, the tactic is still the same. Eventually the animal learns that if it doesn't do what's it's told on 'pressure' it gets pain.

But I'm interested in what you think is going on, I'm only going on centuries and centuries of anthropology. I'm am interested in how you see the pressure/bit/equipment working. How do you think the pressure works on the animal?

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Bryonyshcmyony

Earlier you said something like "pressure is not pain". That's not really right- force from a push or pull action is pressure, and it becomes pain when it passes an individual threshold. For millennium that threshold has been exactly how human have got animals to do their bidding.

For example, say your horse sees something in a field it wants go and see. You, however, want to go straight on. The horse moves left towards the object and you correct it with a slight ankle and a gentle touch of the rein. The horse is having none of it, it wants to see the object and continues left. Your 'light pressure' hasn't been enough. You do again bit harder, horse still ignores. You go again. This time the reins and pressure reach the pain threshold, as the horse continues you tug harder. If now has a choice, it stops and does your bidding and no pain. Or it continues on its own desire and gets pain. The horse will likely desist, after all no animal likes being hurt.

This is 1000s of years worth of how humans have 'trained' animals that are physically stronger than us. We used our brains to pinpoint areas that we could control. This has been done with elephants, camels you name it, humans have done it. Felines, especially large ones like lions or tigers react very differently, way more so than dogs, wild or not. Large felines have never been truely domesticated (you can only domesticate as small cat so mich as most cat owners know). Large felines get aggressive, so humans have tended to declaw, detooth, and drug. It's all about minimising the risk.

Back to horses, whilst it's moved on with different kit, the tactic is still the same. Eventually the animal learns that if it doesn't do what's it's told on 'pressure' it gets pain.

But I'm interested in what you think is going on, I'm only going on centuries and centuries of anthropology. I'm am interested in how you see the pressure/bit/equipment working. How do you think the pressure works on the animal?[/quote]
Please don't try and tell me about horses. You are embarrassing yourself. Do you talk to all experts like this?

This is like one of those rich white guy posts trying to tell women of colour how they should behave.

@Thatsjustwhatithink showing once again they know nothing about how to ride or control a horse. It’s quite amusing actually 😂

[quote Polkadotties]@Thatsjustwhatithink showing once again they know nothing about how to ride or control a horse. It’s quite amusing actually 😂[/quote]
Yes it must be quite liberating thinking you know everything when clearly you know next to nothing

Earlier you said something like "pressure is not pain". That's not really right- force from a push or pull action is pressure, and it becomes pain when it passes an individual threshold. For millennium that threshold has been exactly how human have got animals to do their bidding.

Have you ever seen people doing liberty training?

One of the best things about riding is you never stop learning, even those at the Olympics still have lessons and are coached. Some of the posters on this thread haven’t even started learning nor wish to learn

To be fair I have seen people use bits very harshly - people that can't ride, like @Thatsjustwhatithink I'd imagine

This thread is a goldmine for people making incredibly stupid points as if they’re amazing gotchas.

you're telling me a horse would choose to go SIDEWAYS of their own accord are you?

Well, yes. Literally all the time. Because they’re agile animals and that’s a normal part of the range of their movement.

so they jump for fun do they?

Yup, my chubby exmoor pony popped over a 4 foot gate the other day because he knows the grass in the big field is lusher.

only toffs have horses

Except virtually everyone I know from the horse world, but sure. Whatever you want to think.

@Bryonyshcmyony

To be fair I have seen people use bits very harshly - people that can't ride, like *@Thatsjustwhatithink* I'd imagine

I imagine that with the sort of understanding of the biomechanics of riding that poster has, they could be one of the sorts that could manage to do damage with a bitless or hackamore.

you're telling me a horse would choose to go SIDEWAYS of their own accord are you?

My Jack Russell chooses to go sideways often too. She does a lovely half pass. I think in dogs it's called crabbing. Something that agile 4 legged creatures can and do do of their own accord.

you're telling me a horse would choose to go SIDEWAYS of their own accord are you?

This really is the thread that keeps on giving

Obviously, people who ride themselves, whose children ride or whose work is linked to horse riding/racing, etc., will be very indignant and insist that horses are well looked after, love what they do, etc, etc.

However, it is acknowledged that horses are specifically bred for these activities - but there isn't much acknowledgment that hundreds of young, healthy horses are destroyed because they don't make the grade. It is an industry.

@ellyeth

Obviously, people who ride themselves, whose children ride or whose work is linked to horse riding/racing, etc., will be very indignant and insist that horses are well looked after, love what they do, etc, etc.

However, it is acknowledged that horses are specifically bred for these activities - but there isn't much acknowledgment that hundreds of young, healthy horses are destroyed because they don't make the grade. It is an industry.

Do you mean horse riding generally?

Or horse racing?

Neither are correct

Your post says that horses are bred to be riding ponies then put down if they can't be riding ponies.

If a horse or pony cannot be ridden it is because it is either dangerous, or thst it's confirmation means it can't be ridden comfortably. In that case I have no problem with euthanasia as a horse thst can't be ridden is an expensive hobby. There are rehoming centres but if a horse can't ever be ridden it's unlikely to find a home unless people want a small field companion.

I rode for over 10 years. I would never do so now. I find most of the horsey world extremely elitist and cold hearted. Lots of the comments on this thread have totally confirmed that for me. Its really upsetting that so many horses, young and fit ones too, are disposed of so easily.

@Hopeisallineed

I rode for over 10 years. I would never do so now. I find most of the horsey world extremely elitist and cold hearted. Lots of the comments on this thread have totally confirmed that for me. Its really upsetting that so many horses, young and fit ones too, are disposed of so easily.

Quite happy to be elitist if it means spending time with people who actually understand horses!

However, it is acknowledged that horses are specifically bred for these activities - but there isn't much acknowledgment that hundreds of young, healthy horses are destroyed because they don't make the grade. It is an industry.

One of my first equestrian jobs shovelling poo for lessons was at a yard that rehomed and retrained racehorses. So the fate of racehorses in particular certainly is something that I not only acknowledge, but have first-hand experience in. I have been to the livestock auctions many times and have either been a sharer for or outright owned horses from the kill pen.

However, this is not happening on that scale in dressage, particularly FEI top level and Olympic dressage, which is what this thread is about. Dressage is unique in that it is foundational to nearly every other equestrian pursuit and so horses bred and trained to it, even if they are not ever going to progress beyond being a solid novice level, are valued. If they don't suit dressage, the chances are that they are suited to another discipline.

I'm not pretending for an instant every horse has a happy fairy-tale ending; hundreds of young, healthy riding horses are not being destroyed because they can't execute a canter pirouette, though. Nobody breeds to kill. I realise the trope of the way to make a small fortune in horses is to start with a large one is certainly true, but no breeder simply discards to the auctions without first trying every other avenue -- there's no profit in it.

@Bryonyshcmyony

What I've noticed from you is a lot of insults, a lot of "you're so stupid" etc, but what I haven't seen is you explain how you think the pressure works in a bit. Explain if you are the expert. A good argument relies on actual knowledge not how much you insult others.

I could go more scientific on you and explain which nerves each bit actually targets if you want? The bits is designed to exert pressure on the cranial nerves of the horse. It's really that simple. A dental bit for example, this is on the horse’s mouth where there are no teeth. This cause damage to the premolars and causes the development of bone spurs.

A trigeminal action bit puts pressure on the horse’s palate, affecting the mandibular and maximally nerves. This causes pain in the maxillary teeth, palate, nasal cavity, and the entire lower jaw. As I said earlier, some horses use their tongue to push the bit away, which cause further breathing problems.

If you like 'pressure' and don't think that's its actually pain, it may interest you to know that a bit can exert 50-100kg per cm squared if pressure.

Other bits are made for 'stronger' horses and are only recommended to be used on 'strong' horses because they cause damage.

If you're really interested W. Robert Cook, FRCVS, PhD did a study on wild horse skulls and domestic horse skulls are found a whopping 88 % of the domestic horse skulls showed bone or dental damage. 0% of the wild horses did.

But as you and @Polkadotties feel really clever- tell me which bits/bridles you use and what nerve they target. Tell me how you've calculated the pressure exerted on the mouth.

But why actually debate or back yourself with evidence? You can be like "haha I bet she doesn't ride, she must be crap".

If you're really interested W. Robert Cook, FRCVS, PhD did a study on wild horse skulls and domestic horse skulls are found a whopping 88 % of the domestic horse skulls showed bone or dental damage. 0% of the wild horses did.

This Dr. Cook? bitlessbridle.com/dr-robert-cook-bitless-bridle/

The one who sells his bitless bridle? And makes a profit off of it?

No conflict of interest there, surely.

Good bit of Googling there. Well done

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Bryonyshcmyony

What I've noticed from you is a lot of insults, a lot of "you're so stupid" etc, but what I haven't seen is you explain how you think the pressure works in a bit. Explain if you are the expert. A good argument relies on actual knowledge not how much you insult others.

I could go more scientific on you and explain which nerves each bit actually targets if you want? The bits is designed to exert pressure on the cranial nerves of the horse. It's really that simple. A dental bit for example, this is on the horse’s mouth where there are no teeth. This cause damage to the premolars and causes the development of bone spurs.

A trigeminal action bit puts pressure on the horse’s palate, affecting the mandibular and maximally nerves. This causes pain in the maxillary teeth, palate, nasal cavity, and the entire lower jaw. As I said earlier, some horses use their tongue to push the bit away, which cause further breathing problems.

If you like 'pressure' and don't think that's its actually pain, it may interest you to know that a bit can exert 50-100kg per cm squared if pressure.

Other bits are made for 'stronger' horses and are only recommended to be used on 'strong' horses because they cause damage.

If you're really interested W. Robert Cook, FRCVS, PhD did a study on wild horse skulls and domestic horse skulls are found a whopping 88 % of the domestic horse skulls showed bone or dental damage. 0% of the wild horses did.

But as you and @Polkadotties feel really clever- tell me which bits/bridles you use and what nerve they target. Tell me how you've calculated the pressure exerted on the mouth.

But why actually debate or back yourself with evidence? You can be like "haha I bet she doesn't ride, she must be crap".[/quote]
Wtf is a "dental bit"?

And how come none of my horses have ever had dental issues caused by bits or bone spurs?

Dr Cook bitless bridle puts a huge amount of pressure on the soft part of the nose and can genuinely be painful for the horse.

Found this on the same website thst you copied and pasted from

Bit-induced diseases run the gamut from oral problems such as bone spurs on the bars of the mouth and dental damage, to facial neuralgia, neck and back pain, bridle lameness, learned helplessness, depression, suffocation, waterlogging of the lungs and sudden death

🙄