To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

[BFrazzled]

In the Olympics.

Poor horses. This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that?

There was one winner of the dressage contest who supposedly also won in the nineties. No mention of the horse, guess it was with a different one then

Lots of events are a bit silly tbh. I don't want to begrudge anyone their medal. If an Irish woman won gold for skate boarding or shooting no doubt I'd be happy. But if she won the marathon I'd be actually impressed .

@budgun

Although I also don't doubt that some posters have certainly seen the worst of the riding school world and are basing analysis of a discipline on a very narrow scope of experience.

Oh I hope that is not how my post came across.

No, but it was a good reminder that the horse industry as a whole is largely unregulated -- anyone with a field and a pony can set their stall out to be a trainer without BHS/ABRS qualification. Some posters' experience of equestrian sports will be these places, and it's a world away from dressage.

Bits are designed to put 'pressure' (pain) on a certain part of a horse's mouth if they move in a certain way. It's a fairly simple design. A horse has always been bigger and stronger than a human, therefore if you want it to do your bidding you have to train it. The way this works with such a big animal is the pain response. A horse quickly learns that if it tries to jerk it's rider off or chose its own direction the reins will be pulled and it will hurt. So it learns (like all pain response training) to do what it has to to avoid the pain. This becomes ingrained. But if the horse is scared or hurt it will rear up or get flighty, and the rider yanks the reins. Pain.

So to all those riders who say that their horse doesn't jerk their head or needs minimal rein usage- your animal has simply learned (been trained) to avoid pain. Of course after a while it's going to take the option that doesn't hurt it. This is the same type of training people used to use on dogs before they realised training a fear response into an animal was cruel. Choke chains for dogs are considered very poor training. Of course the dog will stop pulling when it's being strangled. But it's wrong and it hurts the animal.

But to all these people who say that their horse doesn't mind the bit or my saddle is sooo expensive and comfortable here's a challenge for you that none of you will take up. If your horse training is so nice and cruelty free you'll have no issues trying it on yourself. Put your money where your mouth is.

Buy yourself an expensive rucksack, you know one that is designed for your back and really comfortable. Make sure it fits beautifully. Bit like a nice saddle for a horse. Then put 30kg of weight in it. Put on your rucksack. Now get a bit made for a small pony. Put it in your mouth ensuring the metal sits on the fleshy cartilage behind your teeth. Tie it in place. Try and figure out what you should do with your tongue. Make sure that the bit can't come out. Then go for a two hour run. I imagine you'd find within seconds that having something in your mouth whilst exerting yourself is horrendous.

But the sad thing is that the horse accepts the bit because it it 'misbehaves' it hurts.

You can all go on thinking it's fine but to me it's just not worth it for human entertainment in the form of dressage or racing. Humans have an awful track record with animals and always give the same excuses "they like it" "it doesn't hurt them" "they don't feel it like us"

@Bryonyshcmyony any of the other horse riders...would you do dressage without the horse but with the big heavy rucksack and bit in your mouth?

While I have no doubt that some tack and training methods could be improved, I find it difficult to take seriously the suggestions from someone who doesn't appreciate there are differences between a four legged flight animal, a four legged predator and a two legged mammal which has evolved to walk upright, or seems unable to understand that both understanding and design has moved on since primitive man first shoved a piece of rough metal between a horse's teeth.

A properly fitted bit doesn't cause pain, wtf are you on about?

Pressure isn't the same as pain 🙄

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Polkadotties

Why can't you ride a horse without breaking it in then? Without a saddle? Without a bit? Without spurs?

If they love being ridden so much surely they'd do it for treats or love?[/quote]
You can ride a horse without all those things

@VeryLongBeeeep

While I have no doubt that some tack and training methods could be improved, I find it difficult to take seriously the suggestions from someone who doesn't appreciate there are differences between a four legged flight animal, a four legged predator and a two legged mammal which has evolved to walk upright, or seems unable to understand that both understanding and design has moved on since primitive man first shoved a piece of rough metal between a horse's teeth.

This!

Pressure is not the same as pain and a properly fitted bit, used correctly, doesn’t cause pain

Plus, DD doesn’t use a metal one - she has a rubber one.

You can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. You can try to explain equestrianism to some people and they still won’t think.

Why can't you ride a horse without breaking it in then? Without a saddle? Without a bit? Without spurs?

You can do all those things but long term it's not comfortable for rider or horse without a saddle. People can and do ride without bits but some horses go better with them

A saddle, bit and bridle don't hurt the horse unless they don't fit properly
Like shoes for humans

Well said Dorothee

@Thatsjustwhatithink,I agree.
Its horrible.
How the hell would you know if a horse likes this treatment, it cant actually tell you can it?

Blimey, how many things can a person get wrong in one post??

1. That's the dressage team, not the showjumpers.
2. That's not this year's dressage team, which was only made up of three riders.
3. You can literally see two horses' heads in the background of the photo, waiting for their riders to get back on for the lap of honour.

Thank you for your attention to detail in regards to 1 & 2 VLB.
Your comments have been noted.
3 was deliberate, as you probably know, to illustrate that when it comes to the media pics the horses are relegated to the background. Perhaps from necessity.

[quote sadperson16]@Thatsjustwhatithink,I agree.
Its horrible.
How the hell would you know if a horse likes this treatment, it cant actually tell you can it?[/quote]
RTFT!
It’s called learning how to read animal behaviour!

[quote sadperson16]@Thatsjustwhatithink,I agree.
Its horrible.
How the hell would you know if a horse likes this treatment, it cant actually tell you can it?[/quote]
Yes, they can and do tell you

You watch their body language

www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/pets/horses/behaviour/bodylanguage

core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82396388.pdf

[quote sadperson16]@Thatsjustwhatithink,I agree.
Its horrible.
How the hell would you know if a horse likes this treatment, it cant actually tell you can it?[/quote]
You honestly believe that a massive animal has NO WAY to communicate displeasure? Nothing at all in their behavioural lexicon? Nothing that stems from their instincts as a prey animal, or their behaviour as herd animals?

You can come up with nothing? Really?

[quote sadperson16]@Thatsjustwhatithink,I agree.
Its horrible.
How the hell would you know if a horse likes this treatment, it cant actually tell you can it?[/quote]
I have just spent (well the insurance company has) over £1000 on vet fees because someone fed my horse grass clippings from their lawn. He had colic and secondary issues from it.

How did I know how to call the vet? That something was wrong without words?
Well I read his body language of him excessively rolling and the expression on his face/droopy ears and his general demeanor of looking 'sick', head down, listless, breathing changes and sweating gave me a clue. I didn't need him to turn around and actually say "Hello human, got belly ache, give the vet a tinkle would you, these damned hooves don't lend themselves to dialing phones" good job really because he'd be dead now if I hadn't.

I also didn't need him to actually speak words to know he was feeling better, the spinning (dressage term - pirouette) and the trotting on the spot (dressage term - piaffe) and his actual horse vocalisations of whinnying (horses have several vocal noises they use to communicate from a grunt, to a squeal to a full on neigh) because he wanted to be back in the field with his mates.

Do you think knowing all that is guess work? Or I just fancied an out of hours trip from the vet and two nights camped outside his stable?

Or have I learned to read a horses body language, and more specifically my own horses body language and know what those signs mean? Through years of training and being with these animals and specifically him. I know just by looking at my horse what mood he's in, I've learned what training techniques have worked and what haven't by his reaction.
Animals have many, many ways of telling us things, that are more honest and trustworthy than most humans, it's up to us to listen and take heed and action.
My horse hated certain things, I didn't just get lucky and know what they were, he didn't have to tell me he didn't with words, I listened to his body language and responded accordingly.
He follows me around the field getting in the way when I'm clearing it, and he's retired and lives in a field all the time, he hasn't worn a headcollar, apart from to have his feet trimmed by the farrier or have his yearly booster for a few years, and that's for their and his safety because he is still a horse who could pull away having been spooked by something unexpected.

Honestly some people just don't think things through do they?!

How did I know how to call the vet? That something was wrong without words? Well I read his body language

Yes! My daughter’s pony recently had colic. We didn’t have any of the rolling, kicking at her stomach type symptoms.

She simply laid down. We had brought her in, she ate her tea fine, DD groomed her, picked her feet out, etc. All fine. But just as we were leaving she laid down. She would normally go to her hay, laying down when the yard was still quite busy isn’t normal for her. Her body language and actions told me something was wrong.

I have an elderly, arthritic retiree. She’s normally quite stoic and is never obviously lame when she’s uncomfortable. I do however, know her well enough to spot her body language and her little signs that tell me she’s been twatting about in her field again so needs some extra pain relief.

I knew there was something wrong with my boy when he refused an apple. I immediately knew something was wrong. Half an hour later he was blown up like a beach ball on legs colicking.

behavioural lexicon......that made my day

It's the same as a cat! You know where a cat likes being stroked, if they like being brushed, if they're scared or in pain
If a horse doesn't like something, it's pretty easy to tell usually by the pinned back ears and teeth and hooves launching at you. It's important they know stuff like stand/move over/walk on because they're so bloody big. A cat might scratch you, a horse can kill you
I took mine to the vet once because "he looked at me funny"
Thankfully the vet knows me and agreed, and he had a giant abscess that was hidden

@sadperson16

behavioural lexicon......that made my day

Ohh, you’re just here to make snide remarks

Okay then

Were here because we think forcing sentient beasts into performing in unnatural ways,should be consigned to history.

@sadperson16 how would you then ensure that mental & physical needs are both met?

@Thatsjustwhatithink

Bits are designed to put 'pressure' (pain) on a certain part of a horse's mouth if they move in a certain way. It's a fairly simple design. A horse has always been bigger and stronger than a human, therefore if you want it to do your bidding you have to train it. The way this works with such a big animal is the pain response. A horse quickly learns that if it tries to jerk it's rider off or chose its own direction the reins will be pulled and it will hurt. So it learns (like all pain response training) to do what it has to to avoid the pain. This becomes ingrained. But if the horse is scared or hurt it will rear up or get flighty, and the rider yanks the reins. Pain.

So to all those riders who say that their horse doesn't jerk their head or needs minimal rein usage- your animal has simply learned (been trained) to avoid pain. Of course after a while it's going to take the option that doesn't hurt it. This is the same type of training people used to use on dogs before they realised training a fear response into an animal was cruel. Choke chains for dogs are considered very poor training. Of course the dog will stop pulling when it's being strangled. But it's wrong and it hurts the animal.

But to all these people who say that their horse doesn't mind the bit or my saddle is sooo expensive and comfortable here's a challenge for you that none of you will take up. If your horse training is so nice and cruelty free you'll have no issues trying it on yourself. Put your money where your mouth is.

Buy yourself an expensive rucksack, you know one that is designed for your back and really comfortable. Make sure it fits beautifully. Bit like a nice saddle for a horse. Then put 30kg of weight in it. Put on your rucksack. Now get a bit made for a small pony. Put it in your mouth ensuring the metal sits on the fleshy cartilage behind your teeth. Tie it in place. Try and figure out what you should do with your tongue. Make sure that the bit can't come out. Then go for a two hour run. I imagine you'd find within seconds that having something in your mouth whilst exerting yourself is horrendous.

But the sad thing is that the horse accepts the bit because it it 'misbehaves' it hurts.

You can all go on thinking it's fine but to me it's just not worth it for human entertainment in the form of dressage or racing. Humans have an awful track record with animals and always give the same excuses "they like it" "it doesn't hurt them" "they don't feel it like us"

@Bryonyshcmyony any of the other horse riders...would you do dressage without the horse but with the big heavy rucksack and bit in your mouth?

If a horse rears with me I generally try to get my weight and hands as far forward as possible and leave its mouth the fuck alone. Yanking on the reins of a rearing horse is a recipe for getting crushed. You very clearly know very little about riding.