That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language

[newnortherner111]

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/latin-state-schools-england-williamson-b1894202.html

Latest idea from the Education Secretary. Given that the Prime Minister has been in a Catholic church at least once, did he not tell Gavin Williamson that the Catholic Mass is usually in the local language now, and has been for over 50 years?

Encouraging learning Spanish for example would be much better and actually have a use in real life.

I chose to do Latin to GCSE at school (mainly cos I found languages quite easy and the teacher was a softie) and actually it's been incredibly useful for me in terms of the linguistics modules I've had to do at university. Plus I just enjoyed it - and as I've got older I've got more and more into things like language change and sociolinguistics and the like anyway as a bit of a geeky source of enjoyment (and don't get me started on what a beautiful concept the IPA chart is - despite the two years of hell it's put me through!).

Ecce Romani can fuck off though!

Language provision in the uk is abominable, too little too late. As someone said upthread if it was better then the addition of Latin would be great, but it isn’t. And when we have a huge lack of send provision, kids coming through with terrible literacy and numeracy, not to mention the damage Covid has done to their resilience and mental health it does strike me as a bit of performance politics.

@chunderwunder

Why not spend the £4m making sure the poor kids aren't too fucking hungry to learn properly.

If only it was that simple.

Proto Indo European is the root of (most) European languages. Latin, Greek, Germanic, Keltoi, Balto-Slavic --- these are all from this root. (As are Sanskrit, Persian, Hindi etc.)

Latin is the root of Romance languages and a huge influence on English, which is fundamentally Germanic.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

To be fair, people are responding to the OP's idea that Spanish is more useful than Latin or, that any funding should be directed to MFL rather than classics.

That's not the same as thinking this is a meaningful and useful policy, or that it's an appropriate use of this particular funding.

@woodhill

The Germanic languages have links with Latin German grammar and sentence structure for example.

Oh my. German and Latin grammar are very different. You really don't know what you're talking about. Because Latin is now dead I think that people believe it's some sort of 'father of all language'. It's not. Germanic languages are not based on Latin. They developed separately. Look up Indo-European languages on wiki as a good starting guide.

[quote lokomojo]Proto Indo European is the root of (most) European languages. Latin, Greek, Germanic, Keltoi, Balto-Slavic --- these are all from this root. (As are Sanskrit, Persian, Hindi etc.)

Latin is the root of Romance languages and a huge influence on English, which is fundamentally Germanic.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language[/quote]
Latin is the root of Romance languages and a huge influence on English, which is fundamentally Germanic

This is disingenuous. We have a lot of words that have Latin roots because the Norman invasion swelled our vocabulary by approximately 100%.

Our grammar and syntax and language structure is NOT based on Latin. It developed separately and in tandem.

Latin didn't 'influence' English. It influenced romance languages, one of which (Norman French) in turn increased our vocabulary.

Er ok,Chunder

@MrsSkylerWhite

Alternatively, ensuring that an huge number of children, thought to be in six figures, don’t leave primary school unable to read English may be a plan?

That figure, from wherever it is plucked, reflects largely the lack of interest many parents take in their child's education, or life in general. After conception it's all down to the state to raise their progeny.

Not really helpful if you're learning German, Finnish or Russian.

German and Russian are both case languages like Latin - it’s something we have to learn to understand as English is the opposite. I did German for 2 years and never had a clue what the cases meant. Once I did Latin, it all became clear, because the grammar teaching was just at another level!

I learnt Latin in school (state, optional extra GCSE) and it MASSIVELY helped my understanding of MFL, of which I only took GCSE French (very reluctantly) but can make a very decent stab at reading most European languages because of Latin.

Learning a language at GCSE is frankly a bit dull as it does require a lot of repetitive rote learning ,at first anyway. It is primarily learning how to use a tool so I didn't find languages at O' level ( that dates me!) that interesting . Certainly not as interesting as English Language, History Geography or even the sciences where I had a lot more 'ah ha that's interesting' moments. And I was pretty good at languages and got 3 O Levels in French, German and Italian.

Once you have enough ability, of course it gets more interesting but learning a language is hard work and pretty dull, unless you have a knack for them and I say that as someone who didn't find them too hard. I think Latin would definitely have been more interesting to learn l.

@chunder the point about Latin and coding is the logic and the puzzling out of things.

If you're a coder, I bet you'd actually love Latin.

Better get your hands on a Cambridge Latin Course...

Canis est Cerberus.

Nuntium mira Latine pro omnibus

Learning a language at GCSE is frankly a bit dull as it does require a lot of repetitive rote learning ,at first anyway. It is primarily learning how to use a tool so I didn't find languages at O' level ( that dates me!)

Yes, it dates you. The content of the GCSE today vs pre 1988 O level is very far removed. Do you teach? Why write off a while subject today based on your learning which is a minimum of 30 years out of date?

Thing is, a good grounding in Latin will help immeasurably with a number of other languages, including Spanish of course.

Sorry, but this is a silly argument. Why would anyone think that the best way to help with modern languages is to learn a dead one? Teach Spanish and it helps with French. Or vice versa. Teach native English speakers the grammar of their own language properly and it helps with learning any other language. You don't need to know the roots of a language to learn it.

The answers to the problems in state education do not lie in trying to emulate private schools. What makes private schools do well is money and bright and privileged cohorts of students. Most state school pupils (and indeed private school ones) will gain little from Latin that they would not gain from a properly taught modern language (or two) with sufficient lessons per week. Latin may take away MFL curriculum time.

And I say all that as an MFL teacher who did Latin A Level and with two family members who did Classics degrees, one if whom teaches Latin and Greek at a pruvate school. Latin is interesting and fun for those who take to it. But it is not useful for the vast majority of people.

As we seem to have a board full of Latin lovers and some Latin Teachers to boot .... can anyone e suggest a self teach Latin course for my yr7 daughter. She excels in Spanish and is decent in French - despite struggling in other areas so language is her thing... and Latin might just help!
I did latin as well as French and German at school. I hated latin but still think it was useful!

Latin didn't 'influence' English. It influenced romance languages, one of which (Norman French) in turn increased our vocabulary.

That is one part of the development of English; but Latin was the common language of educated people all over Europe and England, because it was the language of the Catholic Church and it’s scholars at least upto the time of Thomas More. Look at the Carmina Burana, some of Petrach’s sonnets, the writings of the Venerable Bede, the story of Heloise and Abelard, Thomas More’s Utopia to name but a few - all in Latin. If all educated people wrote in Latin (and right upto Victorian times well to do boys would have studied Classics), then they are bound to have adopted some Latin vocabulary into their thinking and vernacular - such as technical language in medicine, science, law…Why do we talk about videos, television, super novas - not because these words came from Norman French!

@bumblingbovine49

Learning a language at GCSE is frankly a bit dull as it does require a lot of repetitive rote learning ,at first anyway. It is primarily learning how to use a tool so I didn't find languages at O' level ( that dates me!) that interesting . Certainly not as interesting as English Language, History Geography or even the sciences where I had a lot more 'ah ha that's interesting' moments. And I was pretty good at languages and got 3 O Levels in French, German and Italian.

Once you have enough ability, of course it gets more interesting but learning a language is hard work and pretty dull, unless you have a knack for them and I say that as someone who didn't find them too hard. I think Latin would definitely have been more interesting to learn l.

I enjoy learning languages, and for me starting out in a new one is hard to beat because you go from nothing at all to building up knowledge quickly. I hated GCSE German, however. We didn’t learn about how the language worked at all. Instead, we were given sentences with blanks and lists of words that could be swapped in and out. Talk about dull and robotic. Grammar was not in vogue educationally at the time!

*private

@GreenestValley

Totally disagree, Latin is the root of all European languages so has benefits in terms of understanding the linguistic principles underpinning all languages.

Added to which it is a portal into learning about ancient civilization, literature, and a whole world of culture different from our own.

Nothing at all to do with going to mass! Surely you can see there is value in academic studies for how they encourage you to think, rather than just practical application?

This it's very useful in law, medicine , horticulture etc. I went to the Sinai mountain in my younger backpacking days and found it fascinating. Greek orthodox monastary at the home of the biblical burning bush in what is now a predominantly muslim country. Clearly my education was lacking as I had no idea how that happened. If only I'd studied latin in school I might of had a bit more appreciation for ancient civilisations :) I did learn a bit of latin then. I learnt some ancient greek when studying byzantine law too.

Whilst I've got nothing against the teaching of Latin per se, I would much prefer if Modern Foreign languages were taught to a decent level in UK schools. I did both French and German and gained high grades, but GCSE levels are pretty much only Beginner level in these languages and won't get you any further than ordering something in a shop or commenting on the weather. Meanwhile, on the continent, kids leave high school with fluent English and often another foreign language to their own. There's really not much point in learning a foreign language in school unless you can become nearly fluent, otherwise it's only going to be of use for buying something on holiday, hardly enhancing job prospects. I've lived abroad and been at a serious disadvantage for my lack of foreign language skills. I think I would have enjoyed learning Latin, but I imagine to most of my classmates at my run of the mill comp it would have been seen as hellish and pointless.

I wish I’d had the opportunity to learn Latin at my state grammar school. It would’ve been incredibly helpful with the Latin-based modern languages I went on to learn later, with history and archival research… I love this scheme!
I’d much rather my kids learned Latin than modern languages. It’s a brilliant starting point for so much.

Latin is not a "dead language". It lives on (albeit heavily evolved) in the form of Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and Romanian. Latin acts as a good springboard for learning modern languages.

Both sides are correct. Learning Latin, like learning most things, can be very useful. There are also many more things in an underfunded system that are probably more important right now.