That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language

[newnortherner111]

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/latin-state-schools-england-williamson-b1894202.html

Latest idea from the Education Secretary. Given that the Prime Minister has been in a Catholic church at least once, did he not tell Gavin Williamson that the Catholic Mass is usually in the local language now, and has been for over 50 years?

Encouraging learning Spanish for example would be much better and actually have a use in real life.

I studied Latin and have found it extremely useful throughout my life. From plant/animal classification to understanding legal jargon and it has also proved handy when learning other languages.

My sons school also teach Spanish and French. So I don't think one excludes the other.

Who else did the study books with Cogidubnus?

Can't read the article without going to the faff of registering, so, just going on the headline, if the Government can find £4million to tinker with the curriculum, I personally would far rather it were used to find enough special school places so so many of our most vulnerable children aren't left without a school place.

But in terms of if Latin is useful or not, or as you are suggesting that it is far less useful than Spanish, I have to disagree with you OP - or, agree with so many other posters.
Latin is the root of so many other languages, and a good understanding of Latin makes learning other languages so much easier. Then it is useful in medicine, law, history (so many aspects), literature, art. Just general 'wandering around a Cathedral or even village Church on your holidays'. I am an advocate and think it would be a great things for everyone to have a grounding in.

Just cross that this is a policy because it will appeal to a certain demograph of voters rather than because it is the most urgent thing to address in education.

That 4 million would be better spent on teaching English and reading skills. My children have barely been at school with SI.

@GreenestValley

Totally disagree, Latin is the root of all European languages so has benefits in terms of understanding the linguistic principles underpinning all languages.

Added to which it is a portal into learning about ancient civilization, literature, and a whole world of culture different from our own.

Nothing at all to do with going to mass! Surely you can see there is value in academic studies for how they encourage you to think, rather than just practical application?

Absolutely agree!

Latin is brilliant. I did it to GCSE. It taught a lot more than just a language. Classical literature, ancient history, anthropology. It really helped me learn to think.

@Marty13 I am (sadly) totally ignorant of Russian/Finnish but German has a similar structure to Latin - use of noun cases etc - so the students I teach often do find it very helpful even though the vocabulary isn’t connected . And I think this is where the skills element comes in so helpful - if you understand language structure and know how to approach translation - so vital in Latin - it’s applicable to learning all languages.

I see value in Latin but dc who are going to do well with language will already learn new ones with ease eg my dd is great at Spanish, so that will be her gateway to other languages she doesn't need Latin to do that and she can use it. She's also v good at German and did some manderin also.

Latin is excellent. Not just for languages, or law (although that too) but also because it's basically coding. With beautiful literature.

Metella est in atrio.

I studied Spanish to a high level, as well as Latin at GCSE. Can’t say I’ve used either very much since. But circumstances meant I had to learn a different Latin-based language, and they both really helped. Latin also helped me with a Slavic language because cases were not unfamiliar to me. And all of these languages helped me with a non-indo-European language because I’d learnt how to learn a language.

The choice of language is far less important than the skills and enrichment you get from any language. Pointless trying to pick out which is the most useful so no, I don’t agree that Spanish should be some sort of default as is often argued.

I enjoyed Latin hugely - felt lucky to be learning it at a comprehensive - and I think widening access is great. It shouldn’t be the case that even the languages you can learn is determined by class.

I studied latin and ancient greek in secondary school. I'd be totally unable to hold a conversation, but it has been incredibely useful, and still is.
Helped me with spelling and etymology mostly. I can understand a word I never heard before just because I can refer to the etymology.

Grumio est in culina

I think it's great plus classics is always enjoyable

I did Latin reading at school which helped with other languages

@Marty13

I studied latin. It was fun but not hugely useful to me.

Though to be fair a lot of the mathematics I learnt haven't been hugely useful to me either.

I have nothing against it being taught in school but I don't see it as a priority.

I'm also confused by people saying it makes learning other languages so much easier. Latin would really only be relevant to spanish, italian, portuguese and french. Not really helpful if you're learning German, Finnish or Russian. And if your end goal is to learn spanish you might as well just start with that.

Actually Latin was enormously helpful to me when I learned Polish, not for vocabulary, of course, but because I was already comfortable with the idea of noun cases and understood how they work.

Not having Latin available at state schools in discriminatory. It makes it more difficult for those not accessing a private education to compete in certain fields. It is a source of cultural capital. I studied Literature at Cambridge University and remember the crippling inferiority I felt when I realised that there were cultural references that I didn’t understand which my peers did. This isn’t just Latin but Classics, more widely. Latin should be available for all not just the elite.

Latin is essential for researching and studying medieval history. The vast majority of medieval documents are in Latin. Record offices have had real difficulty in recruiting archivists who know Latin and can actually understand the documents in their collections.

No Latin = no understanding of medieval source material = a thousand years of our history becomes inaccessible.

Nullus liber homo capiatur, vel imprisonetur, aut disseisiatur, aut utlagetur, aut exuletur, aut aliquo modo destruatur, nec super cum ibimus, nec super cum mittemus, nisi per legale judicium parium suorum vel per legem terre.

Nulli vendemus, nulli negabimus aut differemus rectum aut justiciam.

@Hatethisplacetho

I studied Latin (at a state school) and still use it to this day with respect to understanding the meanings and etymology of words. It is also a good logical/verbal exercise, exposes you to some history and classical art, and enables you to learn many modern languages with ease. I am a huge advocate for it as a subject and I hope my DD is at least a little bit interested in it! The thing that kept my interest high was being a huge Harry Potter fan and all the spells being somewhat Latin based.

Agree with this

My DC studied Latin at their state school (compulsory in years 8 & 9, I think). My middle DS loved it so much, he chose to study it for his GCSE (very limited choice, but able to choose it).
Later I studied latin for 1 year with the Open University. I learned such a lot about language and really wished I had done it at school. Maybe, I would have been a bit better at French, if I had known Latin.

@GreenestValley

Totally disagree, Latin is the root of all European languages so has benefits in terms of understanding the linguistic principles underpinning all languages.

Added to which it is a portal into learning about ancient civilization, literature, and a whole world of culture different from our own.

Nothing at all to do with going to mass! Surely you can see there is value in academic studies for how they encourage you to think, rather than just practical application?

Also useful for medicine, sciences, and law.

I agree with @GreenestValley.

Plus Latin is a very hravily inflected language.

It's an ideal foundation for coding.

@GreenestValley

Totally disagree, Latin is the root of all European languages so has benefits in terms of understanding the linguistic principles underpinning all languages.

Added to which it is a portal into learning about ancient civilization, literature, and a whole world of culture different from our own.

Nothing at all to do with going to mass! Surely you can see there is value in academic studies for how they encourage you to think, rather than just practical application?

This.

@Marty13

I studied latin. It was fun but not hugely useful to me.

Though to be fair a lot of the mathematics I learnt haven't been hugely useful to me either.

I have nothing against it being taught in school but I don't see it as a priority.

I'm also confused by people saying it makes learning other languages so much easier. Latin would really only be relevant to spanish, italian, portuguese and french. Not really helpful if you're learning German, Finnish or Russian. And if your end goal is to learn spanish you might as well just start with that.

I beg to differ. My DH studied Russian to degree level and he found his knowledge of Latin invaluable (particularly grammar when dealing with those pesky verbs of motion!)

@GreenestValley

Totally disagree, Latin is the root of all European languages so has benefits in terms of understanding the linguistic principles underpinning all languages.

Added to which it is a portal into learning about ancient civilization, literature, and a whole world of culture different from our own.

Nothing at all to do with going to mass! Surely you can see there is value in academic studies for how they encourage you to think, rather than just practical application?

Latin is not the root of all European languages.

English, for example, is a Germanic language.

Welsh is a Celtic language.

I will guess that you have not learned any Russian.

I cannot understand Finnish.

It would be rude to say I am surprised at your ignorance, but also wrong, because I know there are a lot of people who are told things that aren't true, of which this is an example.

Lots of English vocabulary is rooted in Latin, the Romans lived here after all

It's a good idea.....

But when there is no funding for dyslexia and other SEN support and diagnosis (we had to pay privately), it's not a priority.

My SEN child wasn't even given the extra catch up courses. It's a joke.

If the UK already had good state provision for modern foreign languages I would say adding Latin is a great thing. However, MFL provision on schools is in the worst state it's been in for decades and funding should be put into improving existing provision before introducing new things just to make headlines. Also, where do they plan on finding all these Latin teachers?