That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language

[newnortherner111]

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/latin-state-schools-england-williamson-b1894202.html

Latest idea from the Education Secretary. Given that the Prime Minister has been in a Catholic church at least once, did he not tell Gavin Williamson that the Catholic Mass is usually in the local language now, and has been for over 50 years?

Encouraging learning Spanish for example would be much better and actually have a use in real life.

Can't they just Google the Latin motto these days?

I'm pretty sure my uni simply provided the translation, though it was pretty easy to work out. Not that it actually mattered one iota.

It now has a link from the wiki page to a handy list of Latin phrases

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListoffLatinphrasess

I do like this one
parturiunt montes, nascetur ridiculus mus

I worked out the Birmingham one last week with basic normal English vocabulary*. But Bridgen is obviously dim..

*per ardua ad alta

Presumably everyone saying Latin was great for them were able to read/write in English too? The number of children moving up to secondary who are unable to is shocking. Priorities.

Yes, because I went to a forward thinking grammar school - which did believe in increasing our cultural capital, and in the 6th form on top of A levels, we also had to do art appreciation, music appreciation, design appreciation, extra PE, civics, Use of English and RE. So, I don’t understand all this talk about where would the time come from in the curriculum, when those of us, not deemed up to 4 A levels, S levels and Oxbridge entry, had to do 3 A levels and another O level, plus the above compulsory subjects.

I had appealed to the SEN Tribunal three times and initiated judicial review twice, before DD reached the age of 11. The highest reading age she ever achieved, was age 7 by 18; and she never could remember the basic arithmetic operations. I worked for 20 years for charities, supporting parents of children with SEN and seeking better provision for them.

However, as Special Needs Jungle reported in an article on DfE SEND funding

www.specialneedsjungle.com/dfes-send-funding-safety-valve-collision-schools-families/

The DfE has increased the High Needs Funding block (the financial pot for high needs SEN) by £1.5 billion since 2019; they have put £300 million into SEN capital spend this year, and plan to increase the High Needs Funding block by around £780 million next year. LAs’ deficit on their SEN spending is around £1 billion - which will have to be paid back eventually.

Even so, it would take billions to put right the SEN system; because all the problems with it now, are really because its never been funded properly.I also think its not just about money; there needs to be a sea change in attitudes to ensure all children have functioning literacy and numeracy before they leave primary school (except those not capable of it, due to severe SEN).

The government does not have the political will to put those billions into SEN; nor are they going to put billions into reducing class sizes; the capital spending programme needed for the problems in obsolete school buildings, no longer fit for purpose; etc.

Those of you, who want more spending on SEN, fight for it tooth and nail, but £4 million would go nowhere - it would probably get swallowed up in reducing the LAs deficits; the children would never see it!

However, I think its good for once, the government are willing to spend some money on the bright children, as pp have said to increase their cultural capital - learning for learning’s sake.

@Intercity225

those of us, not deemed up to 4 A levels, S levels and Oxbridge entry

Really? At a grammar school?!

Firstly, Latin should be for all. Nowhere has the government said it is only for the bright children. In my school it is offered to, and enjoyed by, a diverse range of students.

Secondly, cultural capital is a Marxist term. This makes me much amused when Gav and the dfe use it. As someone pointed out, once Latin becomes available to the masses, the elites will find something else to keep us all out.

@noblegiraffe

My DH and I went to the Vatican. He did Latin so could translate inscriptions however in the Vatican it was I, without Latin, who was at an advantage. I could explain all the art, the people (ooh, that’s Saint Sebastian) and fixtures because I was raised Catholic.

This is because he studied Latin from a different period! It’s like complaining that history undergraduates, who spent all their first year studying ancient history, know nothing about the Russian Revolution say, and therefore history is no good!

I did Classical and Medieval Latin - from the 4th century BC up to the 15th century. It was the Church, and the Catholic Church was the only one in Western Europe at that time (bar the schisms), who kept education and Latin alive through the Dark Ages, the 12th century Renaissance up to the Renaissance. By its very nature, we had to read all the Vulgate, be very familiar with the Catholic Church service, and read Latin by the leading figures of their day such as St Augustine, Charlemagne, Gregory the Great, Erasmus, Galileo, etc and there were allusions to the Church service in much Latin literature. We also studied the history, art and philosophy including the Greeks from Classical times up to the Renaissance, and the influence of the Moors, coming into Spain; so yes, we had to know for instance that St Peter was often depicted with keys; and the visual references to other saints in art, which illiterate congregations in those days, would have recognised.

I am a professional linguist and did Latin GCSE along with 2 other modern FLs.

Latin was a total waste of time as my goal was to actually speak foreign languages, not read comic strips showing Romans conversing in a dead language. The literature is also boring AF and hasn't remotely helped in my adult life.

Yes, Latin helps with the origin of words but so does Google.

Russian, Arabic, Chinese, IT, extra English, extra FL conversation lessons so the kids can actually speak the language fluently... there are so, so many more valid and relevant options.

The literature is also boring AF
No, it's not. My ds is not a keen reader but really enjoys what he studies in Latin.

What do you mean by professional linguist btw? Just curious!

@EBearhug

Can't they just Google the Latin motto these days?

Of course but that does not mean learning Latin and any other language is not important. Technically one could Google most things but that does not mean learning and university is of less value. Latin is useful but not as useful as many more widely used modern global languages. Not learning Latin in not a detriment but British pupils need to improve English (and some their heritage Welsh, Celtic or Scots) and all other useful languages such including Spanish for ease of learning or if capable even Chinese or Arabic for global trade etc.

Really? At a grammar school?!

Yes, my school was a 3 form entry - classes of 36. By the time of the 6th form, there were iirc 96 in my year. Only 11 were chosen to be put forward for Oxbridge entry and S levels. I can't remember how many did 4 A levels, but I would say the majority did 3 A levels, an O level, and as I said, we all had to do Use of English and all the appreciation subjects, Civics, RE, PE etc. However, they probably prioritised those doing medicine or veterinary science, etc, to get 3 As at A level to get in, rather than 4 Bs - over stretching themselves to do 4. We were only pushed to do academic subjects at the traditional universities - polytechnics did not enter the thinking of my school, afaik.

Not learning Latin in not a detriment but British pupils need to improve English (and some their heritage Welsh, Celtic or Scots) and all other useful languages such including Spanish for ease of learning or if capable even Chinese or Arabic for global trade etc.

I dare say people do succeed in becoming fluent Mandarin speakers in this country, but its not an easy language for us to learn. DD did Japanese at university, and did some Mandarin and Korean. She had no problem, learning to read and write the Chinese characters in Japanese, but found Mandarin as a tonal language much harder than Japanese, Korean, French, Spanish and German - and she had the advantage of a boyfriend, who first language is Mandarin.

I learnt some Cantonese in my 20s, but there was the odd word I never said, because I knew if my pronunciation came out wrong, then I could be saying a very rude word to them!

@Piggywaspushed

Firstly, Latin should be for all. Nowhere has the government said it is only for the bright children. In my school it is offered to, and enjoyed by, a diverse range of students.

Secondly, cultural capital is a Marxist term. This makes me much amused when Gav and the dfe use it. As someone pointed out, once Latin becomes available to the masses, the elites will find something else to keep us all out.

Exactly - the whole point is that it’s a form of social and cultural currency based on its exclusivity in association with a certain group or strata, and if everyone does Latin (for eg) its cache will soon be lost.

That’s not to say it’s not worthwhile studying for other reasons!

Yes, I think that's exactly what I am saying. If the government had just done this, with no fanfare and no fuss, all would be fine. It's their desperate insistence on making it part of their so called 'levelling up' that is just laughable.

Meanwhile, today, Boris has said with a straight face today :

The creative industries are at the heart of our plans to build back better

The literature is also boring AF and hasn't remotely helped in my adult life.

You clearly did not read the right stuff; or at least like the passer poems of Catullus, nobody told you what it really meant! (Pornography is not my thing, but there was plenty of it - which gave a real insight into life in those days for the upper classes.)

• Post edited at OP's request

Didn’t he just cut arts funding?

Yes, yes he did... but if Big Friendly and Loaded Americans come and put new studios in Hertfordshire , he can make it look like he made it happen and the Home Counties might like him again.

@ActonSquirrel

Really...I ended up a solicitor

Latin

Affidavit - he has sworn
bona fide - in good faith
Bona vacantia - ownerless goods
Caveat - may he beware
Certiorari - to be apprised - in practice a type of writ
de minimis - about the smallest things
doli incapax - incapable of guilt
ex parte - from one party
in loco parentis - in place of the parent
inter alia - among others
mens rea - guilty mind
obiter dictum - a thing said in passing
prima facie - on the face of it

Ex turpi causa non oritur actio - a legal doctrine which states that a claim will not succeed if it arises in connection with the claimant's own illegal activities

Volenti non fit iniuria - to a willing person, no injury is done - a defence to Negligence claims that the party consented to the risk of harm

That is just a small selection of Latin terms used in law.

I mean when you are reading cases and judgments at law school and counsel's advices, they are full of words and phrases in Latin.

Law is a pretty common degree choice. What the heck use would Spanish have been to me?!

Mea Culpa? Great post. I agree, I taught 2 out of three of my DCs Latin up to GCSE level ( the third rebelled!). My only worry is that there needs to be so much time applied to the PHSE which is so important that I would be wary of taking time out of that. But I love Latin, and agree with many posters, of it's value

@Serenissima21

What do you mean by professional linguist btw? Just curious!

I'm a translator. Can honestly say that Latin didn't help me learn languages, it just made me wish I'd opted for Russian instead.

Having 5x the number of native-speaker conversation and listening lessons would have helped the speed of my language uptake enormously, though.

@partridgefeather Thanks. I'm a teacher and translator but I think I prefer professional linguist. I didn't learn Latin at school but seeing as I translate mainly from Italian, it would probably have helped!

The literature is also boring AF

Did you get stuck with the Gallic Wars or something?!

when you are reading cases and judgments at law school and counsel's advices, they are full of words and phrases in Latin

Again, one wonders how people manage to successfully become lawyers without ever having been near a Latin class

@Intercity225 Each to their own, personally I think secondary school is far too short for there to be time for Latin, when you need a lot of practical nouse and vocational skills to get a job, and when the UK population's language speaking ability is so very far behind the rest of Europe's.

I'm glad I know nothing about Catullus... Was already up to my eyeballs in Rabelais, Chaucer, smutty Shakespearean comedy and, on the other end of the spectrum, the equally boring AF Jane Austen, whose yawnfest Persuasion turned me off English Lit for life.

But then I am not very good at being middle class, really. Private school in my experience was all about studying the "right" subjects for Oxbridge and feeding the results factory to keep the parents paying.

I learned no real-world skills, and this unfortunately is exactly the case 30 years later at my son's Continental state grammar (he insisted on doing the Latin stream in fact, but has just given it up in favour of IT - his choice).

The point about language is that it only works in context. Studying its evolution/dead forms might be interesting for some, but it's far too niche for a "general" cert of secondary education.