That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language

[newnortherner111]

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/latin-state-schools-england-williamson-b1894202.html

Latest idea from the Education Secretary. Given that the Prime Minister has been in a Catholic church at least once, did he not tell Gavin Williamson that the Catholic Mass is usually in the local language now, and has been for over 50 years?

Encouraging learning Spanish for example would be much better and actually have a use in real life.

Thanks. My point is that it is one element of it as in the personal example I gave up thread. There are many advantages that private school pupils have and Classics is one of them. I haven’t mentioned disadvantage though.

Re the Cargo Cult - I do now!

Not sure how all of this joins up with the Tories sneering at and cutting of arts education, Gav referring to 'dead end courses', the axing of BTecs....

Latin - great. But where is the research to show that this raises standards any more than decent arts provision, for example? And this government is nigh on obsessed with STEM so this seems an odd move.

There is still a hefty bursary for training to be a Latin teacher, most of whom end up in the private sector. Perhaps this is a way of justifying the bursary,

And this government is nigh on obsessed with STEM

Yeah but this will have come from Boris. 'Levelling up agenda? Chuck in something about Latin. I like Latin.'

@ErrolTheDragon

Isn't there a move to remove as much Latin as possible from the law moving forwards ?

It's rather astonishing this wasn't done around the same time as English translations of the Bible, and the creating of the Book of Common prayer. Surely it's centuries overdue?

Why ? Keeping things in Latin meant no look on for the riff raff

Latin's useful in zoology and botany.

yes we've debunked that, thanks

Latin's useful in zoology and botany.

I sincerely doubt that doing years of high school Latin, learning verb conjugations and reading stories about Romans are going to be particularly necessary or even helpful for learning a bunch of specific zoological or botanical names.

There are many advantages that private school pupils have and Classics is one of them.

Is it though? Which specific advantages does it confer? Presumably loads of private school pupils don't even continue with it beyond year 9 anyway. They certainly didn't at the private schools where I taught.

*I mean lots of them didn't, not none of them did!

@lazylinguist

There are many advantages that private school pupils have and Classics is one of them.

Is it though? Which specific advantages does it confer? Presumably loads of private school pupils don't even continue with it beyond year 9 anyway. They certainly didn't at the private schools where I taught.

Did you read the example I gave up thread?

@Newrumpus

Thanks. My point is that it is one element of it as in the personal example I gave up thread. There are many advantages that private school pupils have and Classics is one of them. I haven’t mentioned disadvantage though.

Re the Cargo Cult - I do now!

But how do Classics confer any genuine advantage? Isn’t it what they signify rather than their actual usefulness or application?

Classics enables a greater understanding of much literature and art. Hence my peers who had had the opportunity to study classics having a greater understanding of some English literary texts than I had. That is one example of how it was advantageous. It is an opportunity that all should have access to. That is not to say that other opportunities should not also be available or that all pupils should be forced to study it but as part of a broad curriculum it should be offered.

Pupils sometimes ask what is the point of studying Shakespeare. That is similar to your question about usefulness. It completely misses the point of education which is not just about practical application but about learning, thinking and broadening the mind.

It is an opportunity that all should have access to.

But that goes for many subjects, but students cannot have access to them all.

My DH and I went to the Vatican. He did Latin so could translate inscriptions however in the Vatican it was I, without Latin, who was at an advantage. I could explain all the art, the people (ooh, that’s Saint Sebastian) and fixtures because I was raised Catholic.

There are many times in art, film and literature when my knowledge has come in useful and he has needed me to explain things.

Are you suggesting that because it would be of benefit to a Literature or Art degree that everyone should have the opportunity to be immersed in Catholicism?

Did you read the example I gave up thread?

No. I've just looked back 5 pages and I can't find where you gave an example of exactly how Latin confers an advantage, beyond you saying it somehow enables them to 'hold their own' at elite universities or 'compete on a level with their private school peers'. How does it do that really?

As someone who went to Oxbridge, knows quite a lot of classicists and has taught state and private school pupils, some of whom in both sectors did Latin and some of whom (mostly the private school ones) went on to elite universities, I disagree that Latin inherently confers an advantage.

@noblegiraffe

It is an opportunity that all should have access to.

But that goes for many subjects, but students cannot have access to them all.

My DH and I went to the Vatican. He did Latin so could translate inscriptions however in the Vatican it was I, without Latin, who was at an advantage. I could explain all the art, the people (ooh, that’s Saint Sebastian) and fixtures because I was raised Catholic.

There are many times in art, film and literature when my knowledge has come in useful and he has needed me to explain things.

Are you suggesting that because it would be of benefit to a Literature or Art degree that everyone should have the opportunity to be immersed in Catholicism?

I didn’t mention religion at all but no I would not suggest ‘immersion in Catholicism’ but definitely an adequate knowledge of Christianity in terms of its cultural influence. Often even at GCSE pupils have to recognise religious allusions but don’t appreciate them as they have so little understanding of their own cultural heritage.

@Newrumpus

Classics enables a greater understanding of much literature and art. Hence my peers who had had the opportunity to study classics having a greater understanding of some English literary texts than I had. That is one example of how it was advantageous. It is an opportunity that all should have access to. That is not to say that other opportunities should not also be available or that all pupils should be forced to study it but as part of a broad curriculum it should be offered.

Pupils sometimes ask what is the point of studying Shakespeare. That is similar to your question about usefulness. It completely misses the point of education which is not just about practical application but about learning, thinking and broadening the mind.

I wouldn’t suggest there’s no benefit to studying Latin – there’s value in studying anything. However I think there’s a distinction between benefit and advantage. Advantage implies an edge over others. I’m still not quite sure what particular advantage it is you think Latin confers to students over other subjects?

I studied Latin at school and also studied Literature at university (along with a modern language) and I honestly wouldn’t say it was of any particular use in either area of my degree.

Would be really interested to find out more about how it enhanced your peers’ understanding of art and literature. That’s not to cast doubt on what you’re saying by the way! It’s just not clear (to me) exactly what you’re getting at.

But how do Classics confer any genuine advantage? Isn’t it what they signify rather than their actual usefulness or application?

Bang on. Having done Latin is usually (not always, obviously) an indicator that you came from advantage, not a way of conferring it.

I didn’t mention religion at all

No, I know you didn't. But a good knowledge of it would be an advantage in studying a literature degree, yes?

Thing is, only very few people end up studying literature degrees. If you had studied maths, you'd have found your lack of classics knowledge no hindrance at all.

@lazylinguist

Did you read the example I gave up thread?

No. I've just looked back 5 pages and I can't find where you gave an example of exactly how Latin confers an advantage, beyond you saying it somehow enables them to 'hold their own' at elite universities or 'compete on a level with their private school peers'. How does it do that really?

As someone who went to Oxbridge, knows quite a lot of classicists and has taught state and private school pupils, some of whom in both sectors did Latin and some of whom (mostly the private school ones) went on to elite universities, I disagree that Latin inherently confers an advantage.

Upthread, I gave a specific personal example.

Having done Latin is usually (not always, obviously) an indicator that you came from advantage, not a way of conferring it.

It's also very divisive along the lines of what CP Snow called The Two Cultures. Where knowledge of the classics is valued over knowledge of the Laws of Thermodynamics in certain circles and for no good reason other than it's a class signifier.

Classics enables a greater understanding of much literature and art. Hence my peers who had had the opportunity to study classics having a greater understanding of some English literary texts than I had. That is one example of how it was advantageous.

Ok fair enough... sort of. In my experience it's not until you get to Latin A Level tyat you get much of a real grounding in anything that would give you extra insight into wider literature. And I can't say that doing Latin ever gave me any insight into art at all.

@noblegiraffe

I didn’t mention religion at all

No, I know you didn't. But a good knowledge of it would be an advantage in studying a literature degree, yes?

Thing is, only very few people end up studying literature degrees. If you had studied maths, you'd have found your lack of classics knowledge no hindrance at all.

So in that scenario I might not have made use of my opportunity to study it but chosen a different route instead.

If you had studied maths, you'd have found your lack of classics knowledge no hindrance at all.

Even though it's stuffed with Greek letters.

I love words and languages. Loving words helps me to explain often where words come from. I had a whole juggernaut conversation with DH on Sat night during Millionaire. This doesn't come specifically form having done Latin, French, German or Anglo Saxon. I think learning any language is good for the brain. if anything, doing my English degree was most helped by German A Level as it supported Old English and Anglo Saxon, and French A level for Middle English. I do think I like words more than most of my colleagues, and know more classical allusions. But that is mainly voracious reading and not basic Latin.

But I don't think medical people and lawyers etc 'need' Latin. They just need to know the terms. I love that I can work out what lots of them actually mean (and names of pasta!)but I just want a doctor to know what a scapula is, frankly.

However, I still think axing arts funding is unforgiveable whilst talking up Latin.

And people who bang on about Cultural Capital really need to read up on their Bourdieu!

@noblegiraffe

Having done Latin is usually (not always, obviously) an indicator that you came from advantage, not a way of conferring it.

It's also very divisive along the lines of what CP Snow called The Two Cultures. Where knowledge of the classics is valued over knowledge of the Laws of Thermodynamics in certain circles and for no good reason other than it's a class signifier.

Yes, I think part of its appeal in certain circles is precisely that it is of less practical use than other subjects.