To think women used to be less "feminine"

[Kalvinette]

A Skunk Anansie video popped up on my FB feed (blast from the past!) and it got me thinking how it's strange that we've never been as feminist as a culture, but actually women in the public eye used to look stereotypically less feminine. I'm thinking of Skin, Sinead O'Connor, etc. Lots of women used to wear their hair really short, there was that whole masculine/unisex dressing style.
With men as well, you had the whole longer hair thing, and then the glam rock thing, men in make up with glitter, feathers, etc.

AIBU to think that although we've never been as vocally supportive of "gender fluidity", in actual fact women and men today seem to stick quite rigidly to masculine and feminine codes?

Are you sure?!

But you know what she means by ‘natural’ surely?

Nowadays it’s all injected lips, false hair, lashes, nails, Botox, fillers, tweakments.

At least back then - hair dye aside - it was more natural.

@LimeRedBanana

Today's Adrian would definitely have tumbling brown locks and an unbuttoned shirt etc. Rocky himself would also be way more ripped today. Don't get me wrong, his body is awesome, but in today's version he would be STACKED.

Mumsy

And also.. she was highly creative original. Why not recognise that?

1. Most of those things weren't invented
2. It's just fashion. Whether to your taste or not. It's just the fashion, nothing different about girls and young women
3. I don't see many women or girls about at all with that whole thing going on

It's capitalism and those who propagate the current 'looks'. People haven't changed.

Agree the change in Hollywood etc male bodies is massive.

So they’ve been invented - because the demand is there for women to look more feminine.

I was in my early 20s in the early 80s. Lots of short hairstyles, the Lady Di cut and wedge cuts.

OP what do you cals as feminine?
The women W you annex are beautiful and have very demons Faces/features…

Feminine!!

Damn you Gin!!

My experience of the 80s was that there was a lot of push back against sexualization of women and intensive grooming standards. Campaigns to get rid of page 3 and remove porn mags from the front shelves of newsagents weren't fringe. You didn't get lots of other women sighing at you if you said you thought men ogling women in the street was bad.

That seemed to change in the 90s and, to me, there seemed to be a slow dissipation of energy for fighting for women's rights. There was a lot more appeasement of men and a sudden rise in glamorous wives, with becoming a rich/famous person's wife being seen as an ideal. Feminism seemed to become about "choice" with no analysis of the impact of those choices or the environment in which they were made so there was little structure to feminism it was almost all about enjoying yourself, not looking at the structure of power and how it impacts women as a class.

@toconclude

And OP appears to be too young to remember the 60s and 70s... I'm not. Men in kaftans and makeup, women in buzz cuts and dungarees... everywhere.

I remember the '60s and '70s, and the only man I ever saw in a caftan was Demis Roussos. He wasn't exactly a fashion icon. Can't remember many women in dungarees either, tiered skirts, hacking jackets and Laura Ashley type clothes were popular. Jeans were popular with both sexes.

Femininity and "sexed-up" aren't the same thing, though. The mother from Home Alone has very feminine styling, but she's presented as "polished wife/mother", not "sexy glamourous woman". There were hyper-sexualised images of women around back then, too.

I dress for comfort and practicality... so not really "feminine" clothes, at all... yet I keep my hair long, because I like it that way and actually find it easier to manage. No frequent trimmings or styling necessary.

@NiceGerbil

AnyOldPrion I'd say they were the fashions at the time for young women - the understanding of what was feminine included those looks.

I always note as well that through all of them the female makeup was plenty, accentuated eyes with big liner etc so not really as deeply different as at first glance.

I’d agree they were the fashion at the time. My feeling is that girls and young women now are being pushed into things that would be considered more “feminine” - such as long hair - but often also highly sexualised, and from a frighteningly early age. There seems to be enormous pressure to conform to a certain look that is exacerbated by social media that is so heavily concentrated on selfies. Back in the 80s I think there were girls with long hair and girls with short hair, girls with crazy electric blue eyeshadow and girls with none.

My daughter didn’t dare to have short hair the whole time she was at school. She would have been the only one and bullied for it. Nobody would have felt they had to have short hair in the 80s. Different styles were normal.

@TerraNovaTwo

YANBU. Grew up in the 80s and 90s as a tomboy. I'm still one. I don't subscribe to social constructs

This.

I spent the 80s in shell suits and massively baggy jeans. School uniform was culottes and huge baggy shirts. In the 90s I was floor length skirts, DMs grunge queen.

Clothes weren't "sexy"

By today's social constructs I am not a woman. I don't feel like what a woman is represented by. It's all utter nonsense. Group delusion.

it's very instructive to compare old Top of the Pops shows...if you look at female artists in the 70s and 80s not only do they look more natural but they have less skin on show overall than contemporary female artists. Strangely the men are mostly fully clothed in any era

What you're describing only happened in the 80s I think. The rest of the time before and after women have been largely feminine looking and men didn't wear makeup etc.

@Kalvinette

The other day I was watching Home Alone (as you do...) and i was quite fascinated by the mum in it. Shes only in her 40s, and shes really pretty and attractive, but she definitely has a kind of soft, warm feel, whereas mums in films today just feel more glamorous. I can't quite put my finger on it. I've also noticed (and this goes for both men and women) that films from the 80s, 90s, early 2000s even, you'll have leads who are attractive, but they arent necessarily HOT. The most obvious example I can think of is the woman who plays Rockys girlfriend (yep, was also watching Rocky recently - forced into it by my brother!) I just think that if they made those films today, they would have chosen a much more stereotypically "hot" actor to play her, and they would have massively sexed her up.

I agree that Hollywood has upped the glam factor. I don't think that's at all the same as increasing femininity, though. There was nothing unfeminine about the home alone mum, she just wasn't sexy.

Maybe that's more what you mean - women used to be less sexualized? In which case I totally agree with you and I don't know of a time when they were more sexualized than they are today.

Movies in the 80s/90s had less sexualized stars, but they were appalling on sexual politics and consent. I watched Rocky with my kids a few weeks ago and we had to "have a talk about it" afterwards, because of the bit where Rocky keeps her in his flat and basically date rapes her and then she's all okay with it. And I'm finding this is a constant with films from my youth. The idea that women can be pushed into sex, no means yes, and grabbing a feel/look/whatever is just par for the course is everywhere. That seems to have changed, so there are some upsides.

I think this must depend where you live. I live close to Brighton, round here there is all sorts of styles and fashion choices. I see a diverse range of styles everyday... its not unusual to see men with long hair, beard and a skirt or likewise a woman with a shaved head or short hair style.

My daughter and several of her friends (12) have had short pixie haircuts. Among her friendship circle there is alot of diversity in style.

I was born in the late 80s, I remember changing my look alot growing up, rebelling against the "girly" look my mum wanted me to be and finding my own way. Im just thankful social media wasn't around to capture those disasters! I do think Instagram/snapchat has alot to answer for in terms of distorting reality and giving youngsters a false idea of what real people look and live like. In the real world people have fat days, days where their skin isn't great, days where they are slumming at home, not a non-stop glamorous lifestyle doing fabulous things and having perfect photo opportunities with perfect makeup, lighting and filtering. Its no surprise that so many have body image issues, anxiety and depression.

Sorry not caught up

'
That seemed to change in the 90s and, to me, there seemed to be a slow dissipation of energy for fighting for women's rights. There was a lot more appeasement of men and a sudden rise in glamorous wives, with becoming a rich/famous person's wife being seen as an ideal. Feminism seemed to become about "choice" with no analysis of the impact of those choices or the environment in which they were made so there was little structure to feminism it was almost all about enjoying yourself, not looking at the structure of power and how it impacts women as a class.'

Pushback. Boring clothes for both sexes. Against the earlier colour and freedom. Lads mags- nuts zoo etc. Pushback against the feminist actions about page 3 etc.

It was crap.

I hated the 90s and into the 2000s! For fashion, the alternative scene got full of laddy dickheads. Furnishings clothes iirc everything went kind of grey...

Anyway :)

'I’d agree they were the fashion at the time. My feeling is that girls and young women now are being pushed into things that would be considered more “feminine” - such as long hair - but often also highly sexualised, and from a frighteningly early age. There seems to be enormous pressure to conform to a certain look that is exacerbated by social media that is so heavily concentrated on selfies. '

Agree and I think the 'looks' from various porn media have contributed.

'Maybe that's more what you mean - women used to be less sexualized? In which case I totally agree with you and I don't know of a time when they were more sexualized than they are today'

Interesting.

Madonna was around obv.
I know loads of people hate her and often the sexy thing is mentioned. I've always liked her. Men were quite scared of her :D

I think a fair lot of men find it really difficult when presented with a beautiful woman dressed in a way that says sex. But the look in her eye and her manner says don't fuck with me. The whole thing looks like appealing to their gaze but the demeanor says no fucking chance mate.

The way things are now it's so often. Looking up at the camera. Or a sort of I dunno. More of a deferential look? That's not the right word. I can't explain what I mean!

That or the dance moves etc in videos which so often are derived from USA stereotype lap dancing etc.

"And now, we have a world where fake eyelashes, nails, fillers etc are the norm.

It all feels like backwards steps to me."

I think this all the time and it makes me so sad. So many beautiful girls around me seem to hit 14 and mutate into looking like one another with daily application of fake tan and slug-size eyebrows. If my white-as-a-milk-bottle daughter starts doing that to herself, I will cry actual tears. I feel like when I was a teen, our natural selves were enough. You stuck on a nice top, bit of lippy and hit the dance floor...... and actually danced until you were drenched. I hear that's no longer a thing either. God, I sound old.

@NiceGerbil

Interesting that you say that, I was watching a documentary about Brigitte Bardot, and how she started out kind of flirty and provocative, and then at the peak of her career she did a U turn and basically abandoned that image to focus on animal rights. Then men couldn't stand it. She said it was almost as if she had personally insulted them, and they became merciless towards her.

Ha see also

Loads and loads of men being unable to accept/ even sort of take in when women have aged...

Carrie fisher
Debbie Harry
The woman out of moonlighting

And in those 3 cases the women didn't GAF. they weren't hiding away and apologetically having loads of surgery and whatnot to reassure that yes. I know it too. I'm still trying see? To please the male gaze...

Nope.

Total sort of rejection NOPE from lots of men.

Actually ditto Kate Bush.
I'm sure many others.

Oh and the utter massive hostility to Madonna who says fuck you I don't care in s different way.

Kalvinette yes exactly that sort of thing.

What beautiful / sexy female stars are supposed to do is

When they start to look older
Step back
Demonstrate understanding of the importance of their looks by keeping trying with any tools at their disposal. So men can understand that while obviously they are past it, they accept and understand the importance of indicating that they are trying to comply

Happy older women who used to be widely fancied. Being SEEN happy and not concerned. Are just. They're ruining everything!