To think women used to be less "feminine"

[Kalvinette]

A Skunk Anansie video popped up on my FB feed (blast from the past!) and it got me thinking how it's strange that we've never been as feminist as a culture, but actually women in the public eye used to look stereotypically less feminine. I'm thinking of Skin, Sinead O'Connor, etc. Lots of women used to wear their hair really short, there was that whole masculine/unisex dressing style.
With men as well, you had the whole longer hair thing, and then the glam rock thing, men in make up with glitter, feathers, etc.

AIBU to think that although we've never been as vocally supportive of "gender fluidity", in actual fact women and men today seem to stick quite rigidly to masculine and feminine codes?

I'm guessing "toconclude" is talking absolute bollocks.

I know what you mean, it's rare to see women with shorter than bob hair or hair that's so short it can't put it into some sort of ponytail. Whereas I remember growing up in 80s/90s and lots of women had quite androgynous hair.

@SionnachRua

No I'd say not tbh. If you look at clubbing wear from the 2000s vs now, what's being worn now is far more comfortable and practical - bandage dresses and stilettos vs clunky boots, cycling shorts, crop tops etc. Everything comes in waves.

Depends if you mean ‘nightclubs’ or ‘clubs’.

I clubbed in the late 90s / early 00s and the standard fare in proper clubs was combats and trainers. Very practical.

Dunno OP I don't think your examples cover the whole thing! Also there's 80sc and 90sc there I think?

There were plenty of female artists back then who did sexy/ pretty etc. Too many to know where to start!

What was different in the 70s 80s and to maybe mid 90s was there was much more freedom of expression with clothes hair look etc. That went and it was back to much tighter ideas about for men/ for women etc. Such a terrible shame.

As an aside skin and S O'C were gorgeous. So they could do it and still be seen as, I dunno. It was more ok somehow. To the music producers etc and the public probs.

The other thing back then was the women who looked/ dressed feminine. But they didn't look... Dunno. Like they were there for men and they knew their place. Women who most men would be shit scared of. Women who merrily did their thing even if they came off a bit scary or tbh bonkers. Women who looked attractive to men while singing songs criticising male gaze etc.

Can give examples if you like!

I'm not that up on current music as old and no more totp 😀 but I have no doubt there are plenty of subversive bold etc female artists out there.

I think it's more that what's considered appropriately "feminine" changes with the fashions. Sinead O'Connor may have shaved her head but it didn't look in any way masculine, if anything it emphasised fragility - which is generally associated with feminine presentation, not masculine.

I also disagree that as a culture the UK is more feminist now than ever. To me, it feels a far cry from when I was growing up in the 80s. That seemed to really loose steam in the 90s through 2010+ and what we have today feels like it's just beginning to pick up a bit of steam again. Though I think views on this will depend very much on the social groups you associate with.

@toconclude

And OP appears to be too young to remember the 60s and 70s... I'm not. Men in kaftans and makeup, women in buzz cuts and dungarees... everywhere.

You’re entirely proving the OP’s point?

Yes, things used to be A LOT less stereotypically feminine/masculine - compared with now.

I entirely agree OP - things have got a lot worse, which means many people struggle to identify with one or the other and think there’s a problem.

It would be great if people could just be people.

I remember when this was all fields.

There was lots of gender fluidity then as there is now. There were also lots of hypersexualised woman around then??

Women were certainly more natural in previous decades.

@NumberTheory
That's interesting, how did it feel different in the 80s?

Maybe you're right, and it's true I chose quite extreme examples. But I had very short hair as a kid in the 90s and so did my mum, so did a lot of people. It's really rare to see that today, and you definitely very rarely see little girls with short hair. But maybe that's simply a trend and will move on.

Depends if you mean ‘nightclubs’ or ‘clubs’.I clubbed in the late 90s / early 00s and the standard fare in proper clubs was combats and trainers. Very practical.

Yes, you're agreeing with my point there. In the 90s, fashion was more relaxed/practical. In the 2000s it became less so. Right now (due to 90s revival really) comfortable 'going out' gear has trended again. It's just fashion being cyclical as always.

And this has reminded of how the early 2000s was a time when fashion fell off a cliff

Re the current look with the nails hair etc

I think girls have always followed the predominant fashion and beauty trends haven't they?

Before i got alternative indy goth rock style at about 15...

Certainly at 12 13 14 most of us were poring over mags with things about how to apply blusher etc.

Most of my friend early secondary were rocking bluejay eyeliner purple eyeshadow shimmery lipstick etc.

I myself in the first/ second year secondary had an AWESOME pair of white mini stiletto boots. Which I teamed with s white mini skirt, peach cropped sweat top with 'body talk' written on it and a cropped white denim jacket.

I am very very very pale and I looked well I mean. Pretty shit
But that wasn't the point - the girls that age we mostly tried to look cool like the older girls pop stars etc.

All the slap etc- the whole look is way more expensive and time consuming than it used to be- that's capitalism for you.

I would say that girls that age generally look more natural than we did, the nails etc seem to kick in older.

I don't think people change really tbh. Society and fashions do.

The other day I was watching Home Alone (as you do...) and i was quite fascinated by the mum in it. Shes only in her 40s, and shes really pretty and attractive, but she definitely has a kind of soft, warm feel, whereas mums in films today just feel more glamorous. I can't quite put my finger on it. I've also noticed (and this goes for both men and women) that films from the 80s, 90s, early 2000s even, you'll have leads who are attractive, but they arent necessarily HOT. The most obvious example I can think of is the woman who plays Rockys girlfriend (yep, was also watching Rocky recently - forced into it by my brother!) I just think that if they made those films today, they would have chosen a much more stereotypically "hot" actor to play her, and they would have massively sexed her up.

I definitely think it's worse now, I honestly think that's why so many teenage girls are coming out as non binary because they don't fit into this fake eyelashes/ nails/ tan/ lips and god knows what else trend.
Also the same with babies. Gender reveals before they're even born, those ridiculous and not to mention dangerous headbands people are sticking on newborns and putting girls in big fluffy dresses to go and play in the park! It's drummed into them that's the way they should be from the time they are born.
I was born in the 80's and mostly wore jeans/ leggings when I was younger and Adidas tracksuits when I was a teen. Rarely wore make up until I was much older and my friends were the same.
I loved the style of the 80's, men were much more able to freely express themselves and women didn't seem to need to look so feminine. I love watching TOTP 2 for this reason haha. I sound ancient

@gingganggooleywotsit

Women were certainly more natural in previous decades.

Lol

Siouxie Sioux
Toyah
The whole of punk
New romantic short hair loads of makeup etc

Old women with blue or pink rinses
Perms all over the place
Loads of bleach jobs with the cap things that were Apparently really painful...

Are you sure?!

Amongst DS's early 20's female friends, and even just walking around the town, I am often struck by the sheer homogeneity of their appearance. Long (straightened?) hair in a centre parting seems to be compulsory! Looking at old photos of my friends we all had different hairstyles - short, shoulder-length, permed, straight - none of us had the same 'look'.

The 80s were my heyday, and popstar styles ranged from Kate Bush's feminine look to Annie Lennox's androgyny and everything in-between. There was variety. Lately they mostly look so similar - same hair, same eyebrows, same false talons nails, same artificially-plumped lips. Actually, artificial everything!

So yes, there does seem to be a very dominant style at the moment and that style is exaggerated femininity for women and girls. And exaggerated masculinity for men and boys too, come to think of it.

It's like their reluctant to have their own style.

@SiSiSi

I think you've named pretty much the only two famous women from the 90s that had shaven heads. There might be a couple more that I've forgotten - but that's it, out of thousands. It wasn't "popular" as such.

Toyah, Alison Moyet, Annie Lennox. Most of the properly cool, memorable female British UK singers had short spiky hair. Lisa Stansfield, Sheena Easton and Enya are a few more.

There was also a lot of “big hair” (Kim Wilde) but it was often collar length, not long as is the norm now.

Depends on the clubs and where

In the early/ mid 90s I went to alternative type clubs and on the dance side the harder more mashed up stuff, very comfy clothes all round

Some friends went to cream etc tiny clothes done up to 9s (yes trainers but it was a very glam look).

YANBU. Grew up in the 80s and 90s as a tomboy. I'm still one. I don't subscribe to social constructs

I look at my school photos from the 80s, and there’s one from 1986 and every girl in it has short hair.

And very much agree about films - I saw Rocky for the first time recently and was likewise struck by the female lead - you would NEVER see that now!

As for Home Alone - even Moira Rose (CO’H) is much more glam as an older lady!

AnyOldPrion I'd say they were the fashions at the time for young women - the understanding of what was feminine included those looks.

I always note as well that through all of them the female makeup was plenty, accentuated eyes with big liner etc so not really as deeply different as at first glance.

I think women had stronger or perhaps harder voices when they sang, <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2jV_puhanl8&ved=2ahUKEwiWlJ-i0obyAhVSr3EKHbvABloQwqsBegQIHxAG&usg=AOvVaw38vEhXHvfNrWSenvN8tJHm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ethel Merman instead of being breathy and warbly.

NiceGerbil, thatbthe thing, Toyah et al do look positively natural compared to "done" women today. In photos from the late 80s Toyah looks almost.mumsy by today's standards.

@LimeRedBanana

Yep. I was looking at a class photo recently from 1999, we didnt have uniforms and we were about 12 - lots of short hair, oversized Tshirts, fugly turquoise tracksuits, dungarees etc We would have been about 12 or 13 and we looked an absolute state compared to preteens today! I like it though :)

I had short hair early 80s. Lots of others as well.

81 royal wedding lady di...

@MakeCrisps

NiceGerbil, thatbthe thing, Toyah et al do look positively natural compared to "done" women today. In photos from the late 80s Toyah looks almost.mumsy by today's standards.

Oh come off it