Dressage

[BathshebaKnickerStickers]

Now, I’ve never done dressage. My knowledge of it comes from being a very horsey girls and reading all those pony books.

BUT dressage hasn’t always been dancing to music has it…? It was always just “collected trot from H to M” type of thing (and pretty dull but very technical)…

I’m watching it on BBC1 and the horse was prancing around to a medley of Phil Collins songs…!!!

AIBU to think that dressage didn’t used to be like that…

I think any equestrian discipline, from racing to showing to dressage, is open to welfare criticism for a certain percentage of participants. But the same can be said for leisure horses as well.

I think Carl Hester and Charlotte D. are fantastic ambassadors for any equestrian discipline, not just welfare but also CD has done wonders for normalising wearing a hat, not just to ride but she also wore one for the trot up this week as well. It's far better that people see their idol be safe than run a campaign.

And the moves are extreme, they are at the very top of their game. But these horses are bred and trained for this. Am sure they are vastly superior biomechanically to my fat, hairy highland pony. But for dressage horses they all seem relaxed and happy with their riders and grooms and will have the absolute best of everything, including turn out which is vital for wellbeing.

I think Carl Hester and Charlotte D. are fantastic ambassadors for any equestrian discipline, not just welfare but also CD has done wonders for normalising wearing a hat

Absolutely agree

Most horses will only do the job you want them to if they want to. My old Connemara wouldn’t do any dressage practice but she loved low jumps and trotting poles (I couldn’t handle the bigger jumps, she could though)

@Hilda40

It's shit I can't watch it makes me uncomfortable.

Exactly

Other sports are available.

CD and CH have made real progress in husbandry for the horses too. Like Mary King's eventers, they spend their off time prattling about and chilling in fields.

I worked in racing. I left quickly. It's pretty brutal and actually there was a lot of shit husbandry even on the too stud farm I worked at and I hated that.

@Stickytreacle

I dislike seeing horses obviously uncomfortable, I'd prefer to see dressage performed without crank nosebands and a simple snaffle bit rather than a double and the rider not requiring spurs. I know there will be responses of these things being needed for 'refinement', but I'm happier seeing a well schooled happy horse, that doesn't have the incredible strains some of the dressage movements ask for. Plus I hate seeing warmbloods with tiny feet that nearly always cause problems down the line. Then it leads on to novice riders trying to emulate dressage by bypassing the hours of schooling needed, whacking draw reins on the horse and forcing an outline.😩

Actually I completely agree with this. Modern dressage can be uncomfortable to watch because it's clearly uncomfortable for the horse.

Too much spurs to create false impulsion and harsh bitting/hands that create overbent outlines.

This translates down the levels so people think a unconnected horse with its nose tucked in is a correct outline.

I can make my mare look "correct" like this if I out her in a Dutch gag and get after her with a schooling whip. But it's wrong and I'm not really riding her, she's not comfortable. Looks pretty though.

I ride her and do dressage in a snaffle -, as you have to at my levels to be fair.

Love watching it though, especially Charlotte and Carl who put their horses first and ride beautifully.

Though was she using fluff for the team comp?

[quote NotMyCat]@Babyroobs it's really hard to watch if you're not into it I think. Basically the horse and rider have to do specific movements in a specific pace at a specific marker so as a really easy example, enter in trot down the centre line

The difficulty is basically making it look as easy and as effortless as possible, it should be fluent and horse and rider as one, as if they are dancing I guess!

The work to train the horses to do the movements from the riders command is insane. Years and years of training, it's a perfectionist sport. Plus the riders have to be incredibly fit with core strength [/quote]
But is tha natural for them…?

Horses gotta horse..

I like the idea of intellectually challenging clever horses, but it’s not natural to be dancing to Phil Collins. We must be able to intellectuality stimulate beating horses without making them dance. It feels. Exploitative because it’s not natural behaviour

They enjoy it. Horses love having a job to do as long as they trust their rider.

I like the idea of intellectually challenging clever horses, but it’s not natural to be dancing to Phil Collins. We must be able to intellectuality stimulate beating horses without making them dance. It feels. Exploitative because it’s not natural behaviour

It’s not natural for my dog to do high fives in exchange for treats, or to sleep on my bed but it’s definitely not exploitative

The horses don't care if they are doing the movements to music or not, they don't understand the difference?

The music is there to add a creative element and a challenge of rhythm and showmanship in the ride. A horse doesn't know it's 'dancing to Phil Collins'.

Trust me, you can't make em do something they don't want to!!?

Is Phil Collins worse than Disney compilations? Or a nice techno dance affair?

I don't care for competitive dressage at all, but I wouldn't specifically blame Phil Collins for it

Pretty much nothing we do with horses is natural. Naturally, horses would be half the size and hooley across hundreds of thousands of acres, covering a few dozen miles a day and killing themselves in all kinds of creative ways. Most horses' lives are about as far removed from that as it's possible to be (except, possibly, their death wish).

I don't think there's a horse sport out there which doesn't have welfare issues associated with it at some level - racing, endurance, SJ, eventing, polo - even niche sports and very amateur sports / non-competitive horse riding. I'd like to think it's possible to clean up our attitude to horse sports and improve the horse's lot without getting rid of everything "unnatural".

The movements a horse does in dressage are totally natural - I own a stallion, and he does pretty much all those moves to show off to passing mares.

The challenge is teaching them to do those moves in balance with a rider on board, and when asked by the rider.

Some horses love dressage, some don't. I had a mare previously who loved it, which was lucky as I did too. I have a mare currently who really doesn't love it, so we keep it to a minimum, just enough to make her more balanced and responsive to ride, and she mostly jumps instead, which she loves.

I can make my mare look "correct" like this if I out her in a Dutch gag and get after her with a schooling whip. But it's wrong and I'm not really riding her, she's not comfortable. Looks pretty though.

Right, but "harmony" is a scored category, with a coefficient of at least 2 in FEI tests. You could make your mare look correct, but any judge would see the tension and penalise you. Even down through the most basic levels of BD, these concepts are scored on a large coefficient, as they should be.

If novice riders are attempting to emulate the willingness and partnership by mechanical aids and strength alone this is quickly exposed for ineffective by any half decent trainer or judge. You might get it to work that way at home but a good trainer would call it out and correct it, and a good judge will mark it down.

@gwenneh

I can make my mare look "correct" like this if I out her in a Dutch gag and get after her with a schooling whip. But it's wrong and I'm not really riding her, she's not comfortable. Looks pretty though.

Right, but "harmony" is a scored category, with a coefficient of at least 2 in FEI tests. You could make your mare look correct, but any judge would see the tension and penalise you. Even down through the most basic levels of BD, these concepts are scored on a large coefficient, as they should be.

If novice riders are attempting to emulate the willingness and partnership by mechanical aids and strength alone this is quickly exposed for ineffective by any half decent trainer or judge. You might get it to work that way at home but a good trainer would call it out and correct it, and a good judge will mark it down.

Quite

My 14 year old can get my 17hh Irish nutter to go in a beautiful outline in a snaffle and a simple bridle with no gadgets. I can't. She can do this as she's a really good sensitive rider. Far better than me.

But at the highest levels, when you get articles such as these :-www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2016/05/dressage-a-blood-sport/ it does make one query the level of force vs harmony.

@Stickytreacle

But at the highest levels, when you get articles such as these :-www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2016/05/dressage-a-blood-sport/ it does make one query the level of force vs harmony.

What, the article talking about how the FEI will ban riders if the horse shows blood in its saliva? Why is that bad?

That article is also almost a decade old. The rules have been tightened, more than once, for both eventing and dressage, since then.

"What the article talking about how the FRI will ban riders if the horse shows blood in its saliva? Why is that bad?"

The proposed rule would mean that if a horse, at a top level Games or Championships, is seen to have blood anywhere on its body it can be assessed by an FEI veterinarian and if it is then deemed fit to compete, can restart its test.

Up until now riders have been eliminated if there is any blood visible on the horse. While blood is not specifically mentioned in the FEI Rule Book for Dressage Events, the FEI has previously been able to refer to their all-encompassing rule that a reason for elimination is if: “the performance is against the welfare of the horse.”

The proposed new rule is as follows:

At top level events (Olympic Games, Championships and Finals for seniors), where FEI vets will be present at the warm-up arena, they would examine the horse and the test would resume if bleeding from minor injuries had stopped. If the bleeding had not stopped, the horse would be eliminated. Where vets are not present to examine the horse, bleeding would result in immediate elimination.

In a sport supposedly focusing on lightness, harmony and sensitivity, the presence of blood from bits or spurs is something that shouldn't happen, and implies that force is indeed used in certain cases. The new ruling would allow a horse to continue as long as a vet said it was fit to do so vs immediate elimination previously

Just to add that I realise this is an old article, but dressage isn't always the sweetness and light that people insist it is.

Grand Prix dressage is so difficult and technical. For anyone interested the eventing dressage starts tonight, it’s so simple and boring to watch compared to the GP and yet still above the ability of the majority of leisure horse riders.

That rule is long since not a proposed rule and is in the FEI rulebooks. Blood is VERY specifically mentioned and it was used to eliminate a competitor this week at the Olympics. Horses are vetted before and after tests, and the ground crew can now contact the judges mid-test if necessary to stop any suspected abuse.

7.6 Bleeding:
7.6.1 If the Judge at C suspects fresh blood anywhere on the Horse during the test, he will stop the Horse to check for blood. If the Horse shows fresh blood, it will be eliminated. The elimination is final. If the Judge through examination clarifies that the Horse has no fresh blood, the Horse may resume and finish its test.

7.6.2.1 If the FEI Steward discovers fresh blood in the Horse’s mouth or in the area of the spurs during the check at the end of the test (Article 430.9), he informs the Judge at C, who will eliminate the Horse and the Athlete.

7.6.2.2 If the FEI Steward discovers fresh blood anywhere else on the Horse’s body (i.e. other than the Horse’s mouth or in the area of the spurs) during the check at the end of the test, the Athlete/Horse combination is not automatically eliminated. The FEI Chief Steward shall inform the Judge at C whether the Horse is fit to continue in following competition(s) in the Event. The Judge at C will take a decision on the Horse’s fitness to continue, based on the FEI Veterinarian’s advice. If the Judge at C decides the Horse is not fit to continue, the Horse will not be permitted to take part in any further Competition(s) or tests at the Event, but the result(s) obtained by
the Athlete/Horse combination in any Competition(s) or tests already completed shall stand.

7.6.3 If the Horse is eliminated pursuant to the above, or if the Horse is injured during the test and starts bleeding after finishing the test, it should be examined by an FEI Veterinarian prior to the next Competition to determine if it is fit to continue in the Event the following day(s). The
decision of the FEI Veterinarian is not subject to appeal.

So yes -- you could in theory abuse your horse in the name of dressage. You'd be caught out pretty quickly; if historical, in the pre-vetting, and if current, during or after the test.

So yes -- you could in theory abuse your horse in the name of dressage. You'd be caught out pretty quickly; if historical, in the pre-vetting, and if current, during or after the test.

The pre-vetting will not (and, indeed, cannot) determine that the horse has not been subject to historic abusive training practices and it's disingenuous to suggest it would. That's not to say that the recent rule changes aren't a positive thing, or that the FEI condone abusive practices, but some damage is only visible post-mortem. They're doing the best they can, but the desire to win is a powerful and often corrupting motive.

Of course, where people draw the line on what constitutes "abuse" is a matter of debate - some people think owning and riding horses at all is abusive, some think that spurs / double bridles / shoes are abusive, others think it's not abusive until blood is pissing out of the horse's mouth, if even then - people draw lines in different places and there's constantly evolving scientific evidence to change public opinion. That's why the FEI change their rules periodically - to keep up with the evidence and the changing perspectives.

Just to say, there is (was) a lot of work goes into training circus horses as well......
I am not supporting at all, but liberty horses are in a sense even more "co-operative" (no punishment in the training I saw); they could just exit the ring if they felt like it.
I held six with one hand, and they just behaved nicely (stallions as well), and pooped oj command.
PS - not especially poud of myself to have worked with a circus; it was a while ago.

I also worked for a GP Dressage rider - and since then, Judge. She may have had perfect harmony with he horse in the school, and arena - but if he didn't walk into his stable just the way she wanted him to, she screamed at him, slapped him and pushed him around (well, tried to). A lovely-natured 17.2 young horse, who just wanted to please. I didn't stay long after that...... The circus was in some ways better.