To be frustrated with representative democracy

[StrongLegs]

I'm getting really frustrated with the way things are being run by politicians and I wondered if it is just me?

Things that frustrate me:

• Failure to tax the big corporations like Facebook, Google and Amazon (I realise that this is a global problem).
• House prices that exclude young people from the housing market
• Climate change
• Underfunding of the NHS
• Underfunding of schools
• Erosion of workers right by zero hours contracts and companies like Uber.
• Westminster government ignoring the devolved nations, even during critical negotiations like Brexit and covid.
• Propping up banks when they were being so stupid in the 90s

but not propping up musicians during the covid period.

• I see greed everywhere, and it frustrates me terribly.

I've been voting to change all this kind of stuff for donkeys' years, but it doesn't seem to make any difference. I just wondered if anybody had any thoughts? I'm happy to hear anything at all.

I don't plan to repond to comments as I know this is a huge and complex topic.

I just would be really interested to hear what others think.

YABU - representative democracy is just fine, and I feel that our politicans represent my views
YANBU - I understand your frustrations and agree either completely, or to some extent.

Please give details. I would really like to know what you think.

@Overthebow

Just to clarify - when I talk about redistribution of wealth, I was specifically talking about taxing the billionaires and the big corporations like Amazon and Facebook and Google, and giving the money to the NHS and state school system. I struggle to see how that could be wrong in anyone's eyes.

Interesting discussion, OP. I agree with others that a system other than FPTP would be an improvement and I will never miss a chance to bitch about Nick Clegg completely ballsing up the opportunity to achieve that. He made so many mistakes in his power grab but, to me, that was the most unforgivable as, had he got it right, it would have had by far the biggest impact in the really long term.

Nevertheless, my biggest frustration around politics is our tendency to see politicians as those with power and the rest of us with a chance to make a difference only once every few years when we vote. Yes, politicians have a lot of power. Yes, people with money have a lot of power. But every single one of us has the opportunity to make a difference in this world every single day. There are things we absolutely need politicians to get right, but there are lots of things that can be improved without them. Unfortunately it generally involves hard work at a local level and there are no short cuts, just the people who get shit done, as a PP referred to. But we can all be those people if we don't give our power away by underestimating ourselves while congratulating ourselves on showing up to vote occasionally.

@guinnessguzzler That sounds very good. Can you give some examples?

Do you mean that I should buy my very short introduction books in the local bookshop rather than at Amazon? I could do that.

I've reached a similar conclusion tbh. I have started volunteering in the NHS, and am sending my son to our local excellent state school, while all my neighbours send their kids to the private schools (it's nervous work going against the grain on a thing like that.)

A few years ago when I started to get frustrated with what I saw as "the system". I mean particularly things like the high levels of national testing in primary schools, and the vanishingly short appointment times with GPs (which I think are counter-productive if it means we are all limping about the place, unable to address health problems.)

I reached the conclusion that I just needed to concentrate on working as a really good team with whoever was my local contact with "the system".

So I try to work really well with my son's teachers and with the individual NHS staff that we are in contact with. I figure that I can make a much bigger difference working well with those people, than I can with my voting efforts in elections.

So I'm volunteering now to actually help those people, and that seems to be a good thing.

The one thing I do feel is kind of working at the moment is the tension between the Scottish Parliament and Westminster.

I feel as though Nicola Sturgeon has become like the leader of the opposition, and she is gently roasting the Westminster PM, by constantly coming out with policies that are slightly different than those being implemented in England.

I think her efforts give us all the chance to see that things could be different. It shows that someone does have power, and we're not just at the mercy of one person in London. I find that very interesting, in the sense that it is gradually turning the tables on our assumptions.

I never really thought about Wales much in the past because I haven't been there, but in the covid period, I've really liked how the government in wales have stood up to Westminster and made their own rules. I really like that!

@StrongLegs Brilliant, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean. Examples could be anything from volunteering, being more conscious of our power as consumers, setting up community groups to address a local problem, dealing directly with local politicians on specific issues (this is where they seem to me to be most useful), challenging prejudice where we see it. I do think it is a difficult balance. For example, I don't want to fall into the trap of saying that climate change is solely the responsibility of consumers but nor do I believe it is only for politicians to solve. The more we demonstrate we care about it, the more interest big business and politicians will have and we will all make a difference in the process.

@guinnessguzzler

Thanks! This is brilliant. This is the sort of thing I can really do.

I will start getting in touch with my local politicians more. I hadn't thought of that at all.

I am trying hard to tackle prejudice too in the committee that I run. I probably can't explain what I'm doing without outing myself, but I am working hard on that.

I think our house is more or less carbon neutral because we pay a lot of money for genuinely renewable energy. We hardly ever drive, and and we haven't flown for years.

I used to buy a lot of stuff for construction projects, but I stopped that and just bought myself an accoustic musical instrument, which I can play forever without having to buy more stuff, so I am less of a consumer now.

Thanks so much for this discussion. This is really taking a weight off my shoulders.

@mustlovegin

You have to accept the views of the majority. Tough if they don't agree with your own

That’s not how democracy works. Yet here are also checks and constraints to protect minority views and minorities.

@PurplePi

OP - Are you Dominic Cummings?

Doubt it. It sounds more like gathering ideas for an assignment.

And is running the country not Dominic Cumming's next assignment?

maybe I had it right in my teen years when I thought revolution was the only answer!

Bigvig what form would this revolution take?

Oh and @Chunderwunder, sorry to hark back to the first page if you have posted since but thanks for introducing me to the word "Sortition". At my age and inclination I probably should have known it but now I do and I like it. It seems I have been a secret sortitionist all my life just a party of one.

when I talk about redistribution of wealth, I was specifically talking about taxing the billionaires and the big corporations like Amazon and Facebook and Google

OP Isn’t there a G7 agreement for a global tax rate? Though no doubt big conglomerates such as those you mention will find a way of wriggling out of it.
I think virtually everyone, no matter who they vote for, thinks these billionaires’ companies should pay a proper rate of tax.

@Andante57

when I talk about redistribution of wealth, I was specifically talking about taxing the billionaires and the big corporations like Amazon and Facebook and Google

OP Isn’t there a G7 agreement for a global tax rate? Though no doubt big conglomerates such as those you mention will find a way of wriggling out of it.
I think virtually everyone, no matter who they vote for, thinks these billionaires’ companies should pay a proper rate of tax.

Yes I just read recently that they are working on it. I really hope the actually get it right.

@ilovesooty I'm a regular MNer asking genuine questions. I'm terribly frustrated by a lot of things in society and want to know how to push for change. I've been on MN for about 6 years but I namechange regularly so I can talk freely without outing myself.

Fptp is the problem with democracy in the uk as it creates a them v us or a you are either with us or against us dynamic. This means party politics is more important to politicians than doing the right thing for the country. Candidates are selected for loyalty to the party above all else, which often means the best candidates don't get a look in. Anyone who does agree with Labour or Conservative doctrine doesn't even get a look in. And the smaller parties are a disaster zone as a result of not having a chance at power (and yes i include the shambolic LDs in this)

The media is supposed to hold to account but there has been disruption of this due to technology change and how this has lead to changes in how the media is financed.

In the past the press largely reflected public opinion rather than being completely led by it because newspapers didn't sell otherwise.

Now in click driven news, the emphasis is on getting as many clicks as possible which has led to the media being increasingly reliant on sensationalism and celebrity rather than reporting which is higher cost.

Also opinion and fact has been deliberately blurred in this because talking heads are cheaper than journalists.

Influencers and the way social media distorts perceptions of public opinion and gives disproportionate power to individuals without any level of accountability are also massive factors.

Justice has been undermined by the fact the system has been underfunded and not adequately supported to the point that only those well off really have recourse through the courts now.

We have a polarisation in opinions amd a devaluation of consensus politics. Instead its been replaced by a 'winner takes all' type mentality. Black and white thinking dominates as a result. Again reinforced by overly simplistic social media which reduces debate to none existance, instead replacing it with slogans and thought terminating clichés. Actual debate is frowned upon as being weak or too time consuming in the pursuit of instead achievement of targets and goals by imposing rules rather than persuading people of the true value and worth of things both to them and society as a whole.

There has been a drive for career politicians and self interest over and above public duty and service and a deliberate and unintentional undermining of the pillars that underpin democratic principles.

Public trust has eroded and that more than anything is a problem because it means the path to restoring faith in politicians in none existant.

I believe in representative democracy. My problem is I don't think we don't have it. It existed but its fragile and is based on how the courts, media and government balance each other. If you had asked me the same question in 2016, I'd have thought very differently. I was wrong at that point, because tbh the problem already was well entrenched and only has been more visible since.

@mustlovegin

You have to accept the views of the majority. Tough if they don't agree with your own

Yes. We get the governments we deserve.

@RedToothBrush Thank you for saying all that. It's very much what I see.

One of my great frustrations in recent years has been the failure of the police and courts to act on what I see as very small scale criminal behaviour in voluntary organisation. I realise that this is due to lack of funding.

In recent years I've been trying to do lots of volunteering in my local community, just as @guinnessguzzler suggests above

Twice I've had to leave voluntary organisations because the groups had been thrown into disarray by smalltime criminal behaviour by volunteers. In one case it was charity fraud, and in the other it was harassement.

I think it only happened because in each case the people in question had both money and mental health problems that were really dragging them down. I did report all these things, but nothing was done, and I had to leave the organisations.

If we had the police and the NHS properly funded though, we could have sorted these problems out. Without that, it's just down to all of us on the street trying to police each other, and it's just not possible to do that.

Actual debate is frowned upon as being weak or too time consuming in the pursuit of instead achievement of targets and goals by imposing rules rather than persuading people of the true value and worth of things both to them and society as a whole

It’s not just that which prevents debate: look at what happened to JK Rowling and others. JKR is successful enough to survive (though being attacked by the mob must have been an extremely unpleasant experience for her and her family) but for those who can lose their job for expressing concern about trans activism it’s a different matter.

OP I'm a Tory voter and I don't disagree with some of your points- particularly taxing of large conglomerates. However, I think people want money directed to where they think it should go - but where does the money come from?

The NHS needs a complete restructuring and overhaul of procedures. It has the buying power potential to negotiate amazing rates on drugs/equipment etc - yet each trusts purchases their own items individually at a premium? Why?
Nurses are paid a reasonable wage but there should be double, if not triple the amount of them,

Housing - by making 'cheap' houses for the young - you're essentially going to do one of 2 things;

• devalue the assets and homes of millions of people, putting people into negative equity
• offer artificially lower house prices to new borrowers/young people, who then get to sell the house at the true market value after 'x' years, and benefit from a government sponsored equity boost.

The other option is offering 100% mortgages, and we all know where that got us in the early 2000s.

Education is massively underfunded, but again, where does the money come from? People crow about selling off our nuclear program or reducing funding, but they exist as a deterrent and I want the nuclear program. The army should be fully manned and equipped for the same reason.

Health, education and defence are not something I could trust Corbyn or Starmer to deliver on. I hate the idea of socialism because it's great until they run out of other people's money to spend.

The Tory government/NHS have done incredibly well with the vaccine drives and I think this has made up for the appalling timing of lockdowns last year. Overall, there's a lot that could be done a lot better, but I'd not vote labour/lib dem until they had a manifesto that would appeal to me as a normal, family-centred, middle earning, home owning Brit.

@StylishMummy thanks for your honest assessment of it. That is really helpful.

Would the taxing of the big conglomerates go quite a long way toward paying for the things that you mention?

I mean the billionaires and the big companies do have a staggering amount of money.

Yes absolutely- but my (admittedly limited) understanding of the situation is with things like Amazon, Facebook etc, they need to be treated the same in terms of taxation the world over, as otherwise, if we impose massive taxes on them, they'll find a legal way to move all activities out of the U.K. & base themselves where taxation is most favourable to the corporation. So if we try and tax them into the £billions, they'll remove their U.K. infrastructure, which loses jobs, the taxation brought in from high earners like Facebook analysts etc, and weakens the U.K. as a centre for international business.

It's a tricky balancing act and I wouldn't want the responsibility of having to balance the books- which is why I'm not in politics

@StylishMummy yes that's what I thought too. I think that is the problem we need to get on top of.

I was going to suggest the Electoral Reform Society too. Fptp is terrible. It takes 25000 votes for one SNP MP and 800,000 for one Green MP. If we had PR we would current my be run by a Labour led coalition with something like 18 Green MPs.

Yes I agree, there are obvious ways democracy could be improved but its an absurd sacred cow. Even the ancient athenians knew it was crap. Should we expect a decent society when political experts, barriisters, drs etc. Have the same political power as criminals and lobbying is allowed? Plato's republic changed all my thoughts on this.

Take a look at open university OpenLearn op. They are free short courses online. Find some courses about ancient greek politics and roman republic, the industrial revolution and emergence of radicalism in britain and the 1848 revolutions. Great Courses Plus is another good one.