NHS Pay award

[Thedogscollar]

So this is what they have come back with from the insulting 1% offer by increasing it to a paltry 3%.
Workers are leaving in their droves we have a massive deficit in nursing and midwifery which is worsening daily.

I work in the South East of England, we are hugely affected with shortages in staffing, virtually every 12.5 hrs shift I do we cannot have a break due to work acuity and lack of staff. We have junior staff in tears with the pressure put upon them.
We aren't paid for our break and we are hard pushed to get it back as time owing. We cover empty shifts on the bank over and above our contracted hours as we know how hard it is for our colleagues in there.
We are all reaching breaking point some are there now and gone off sick. It is exhausting physically but more so mentally as you know before you even get to work what it's going to be like.

I have payslips going back 10 plus years and in that time my salary has barely changed and I am at the top of my band.

Our management team held an urgent meeting the other day to discuss the crisis going on within our trust with staffing and work acuity. Nothing was really dealt with just more management speak.

This government has to look after the NHS staff that have given so much and still are. Staff retention is in crisis and by offering this paltry pay rise they are doing nothing to stop this disaster becoming a momentous catastrophe resulting in even worsening patient safety levels being eroded even more.

How on earth can this government justify 30 plus billions for track n trace and HSS yet not offer a decent pay rise to NHS workers and in that I include care workers too.

Boris and co should hang their heads in shame but as per they think they are doing so well in offering us anything.

I'm sure I will have people coming on now to say they have lost jobs and taken paycuts and for that I am truly sorry but this cannot be used as an arguement for a huge group of essential workers being financially and emotionally abused by their employer which is exactly what this government are doing.

@janj2301

Problem with organisations like NHS and local authority is you get paid the same for doing a certian job whether you live in London or the north. My daughter and son in law get London wages (less £2000 london allowance) and live in Nottingham where they have a brand new 4 bed town house with a mortgage less than my rent on a council 3 bed terrace. I know other costs would be the same but with the disparity in housing costs % payrises across the board/country like this are unfair

I agree with this. There are some seaside communities that can't recruit nurses (as well as hospitality staff) due to the soaring house prices and rental prices. In a normal world you would increase the wage to attract people to the area, but with banding you can't do this, only in London do you get extra. Completely different for other roles outside NHS, where the pay varies according to cost of living and ability to recruit.

Yanbu op it's ridiculous. DH works on the frontline and it's just insulting. Also he pays a huge amount of tax, it's not fair.

So yes @worriedatthemoment the figures should include pensions, NI etc as they are includdd in the wage bill.

@RandomLondoner from an employee perspective, monopsony employer is a structural problem. The only slight benefit to a few are that national pay rates might relatively benefit employees living in areas that have a lower cost of living.

That monopsony buyer probably contributes to the NHS being ranked highly on international comparisons of healthcare systems' on quality/cost. I saw a couple of reports that had NHS (and I know the systems differ somewhat across England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales) at or near the top internationally on outcomes while being one of the cheaper systems so not just being ranked highly by being cheap. Being able to deliver national coordination probably helps.

I'm sceptical of the PPs saying the system needs reform as none of the reforms seem to radically improve things and just incur transformation costs and delays and recrate historical structures. The overall funding envelope does improve things (based on 1997-2007 correlation of increased funding and improved performance and on international comparisons of NHS relative under-funding).

Increasing numbers of HCPs seem to think the system is being deliberately broken to enable structural changes that will allow delivery beyond what is currently done by international commercial operators who can pay returns to investors, employ Directors and NEDs and remove activity from the 'inefficient' state but add transaction costs. Oddly, those potential operators seem to be donating generously to Ministers, MPs and parties in England.

Look the tories are getting exactly what they wanted, divide and conquer the people. Getting us to argue about private vs public pay when we ALL deserve more.

@LadyMcBee

OP I'm with you.

I'm only a student nurse, I've only experienced placements, and I plan to only work for NHS for 6 months for experience.

Excllent, so just use them and then drop them.

@Gooriddance agree with that ! My husband didn't get a pay rise for 7 years during last recession. He got 1% last few years. It's been rubbish for everyone snd be nice if everyone could support each other. I have a DD who will hopefully enter the NHS in 2 years and she knows the hours will be brutal for a starting wage of £25,000. But she can't wait 😊

@ Thedogscollar sadly many believe that we get too much. What makes me sad is the constant comparisons between the NHS and supermarkets as an example. This last year I was redeployed and helped talk to relatives (I’m non-clinical) of those in hospital. I have sat next to clinical staff and listened to so many calls to tell them their relatives are dying. I have spoken to people desperate for news. I didn’t even have to physically treat patients and I cried at the sheer enormity of what was going on. I think it’s so very hard to really share how hard it’s been. It’s not just the physical toll. It’s the mental toll. DH is a nurse and he’s broken. He has changed so much since Covid started. The staff went above and beyond in most cases. Mentally for many it will take time to recover. Some of the people I worked with left their homes and didn’t see their children for months, working virtually every day. Now it’s looked upon as if expected and they shouldn’t be disappointed that some members of the public think it’s ok to work like that. And there’s no respite because now we are flooded with ‘normal’ patients and some Covid. It’s demanded and expected with no care to the affects it actually has on staff. This is the saddest I’ve felt reading some of the things people write. The NHS isn’t perfect, far from it, the people however are largely amazing and they should be recognised.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@slightlysnippy why does the degree matter ? If someone has had to work there way up or sit entrance exams etc its all tough and also the rise is for all nhs many who don't have a degree and many like drs and consultants who are well paid [/quote]
Because in the private sector people with valued degrees are paid well and mostly get paid well. From reading the posts it seemed a number of posters were comparing nurses to frontline workers in retail or hospitality.

My DD worked as an HCA last summer and Xmas and many of her colleagues were graduates. One was a pilot, another had been in the army. Just because you choose to do a badly paid job does not mean you are not educated. Some people want a job they love not cash.

@ohfourfoxache

The only people that have had a steady pay rise over the last decade are our politicians.

So whilst there is all this infighting, we’re not focusing on the greedy fuckers with their snouts in the trough

Until the masses learn to work together nothing is going to change

THIS is the most important post on this thread.

While we all snipe and backbite at each other that I've got it worse, no I've got it worse, the people actually profiting from all this are fucking laughing their expensive, hand-spun-from-unicorn-hair socks off at us.

@NotPersephone

So what do you suggest to attract staff that doesn't involve better pay and better working conditions, the latter being mainly dependent on services being full staffed.

It’s pretty much unarguable that we need to train more hcp’s at all levels. With that caveat, I favour a continental insurance system. I’ve personal experiences of the Swiss one and found it excellent. Very happy to co-pay but not to pay more tax for more NHS, which has been very poor in our experience.

In a social insurance system Private/public providers compete to pay market rates. It might be that the market rate goes up for those with rare skills/high performance, but we’ll move away from this annual collective pay bargain, hoist-the-taxpayer-over-the-coals, dummy spitting fest that seems so beloved of some NHS staff. 1970’s labour relations be we’re pretty effective at screw-turning but the rest of the world has moved on. 🤷🏻‍♀️

But Swiss per capita spending on healthcare is almost double the uk (£2589 vs £5417).

The nhs is fantastic value for money. If you want Swiss cover pay for it!

09Ozanj
How funny. 20 years in the NHS and never had any of that! My code of practise means I can't work privately within my massive geographical trust. I love my job but 20 years and at top of my banding (7) I earn no where near 50k have never been paid a minute overtime buy my own resources and pay for my own training. Oh and the as a bonus I get to risk my health with no ppe due to the client group I work with, which I did with honour and didn't ask for a pay rise but rubbish like your posts is really irratating

Most nurses / NHS clinical staff get overtime, training allowances, shift allowances etc on top of their salaries & are allowed to do private work on top of their NHS work.

Most nurses / NHS clinical staff get overtime, training allowances, shift allowances etc on top of their salaries & are allowed to do private work on top of their NHS work. That’s why salaries are lower and of course people on this thread seem to have forgotton all this

I’ve never heard of any clinical workers in the NHS getting these benefits. Maybe they do in some trusts.

In most NHS trusts I’ve worked, training is mandatory and you use work time. No ‘allowance’ or payment for travel and very little flexibility in shifts or work pattern. No overtime unless it’s unpaid, and in some teams unpaid overtime is an expectation.

Sure you can REQUEST flexible hours or reduced hours or a job share but if you’re ward based your hours must suit the rota. They can simply say no. You can be FT and told part time or flexi hours aren’t an option, nor is taking time off when you want it (eg during school holidays or the occasional XMas) as it ‘doesn’t fit the needs of the service’. Many wards are desperately understaffed, unable to recruit and can’t retain those they do take on ... and they wonder why!

I’m tempted to leave the NHS due to their lack of flexibility. I’d like to raise my family without panicking over who is going to cover school holidays and half terms, what to do if holiday club gets cancelled again due to covid. Wondering if nursery/school bubbles will pop. If it’s worth the hassle of trying to mend a team that’s so broken, badly paid and poorly managed they’re at each other’s throats half the time or crying because their leave request was rejected.

I’m fed up of commuting and working long shifts, paying silly amounts just to park. Working flat out, then getting ill because I had covid recently (from work) and now have long covid. My Bradford score triggered sickness absence formal monitoring, another slap in the face!

They can’t penalise you for covid but long covid ‘doesn’t count’ (just like catching a sickness bug from patients, or having recurrent migraines from work-related stress), could put you into formal monitoring territory. It doesn’t feel like a ‘secure’ employer although it pretends to be.

My hard working, dedicated colleague recently left: because she relied on public transport and was late to work a few times a week due to bus cancellations (not enough drivers due to covid!) She’d be standing at a bus stop on the phone to us, waiting for a no-show bus in all weathers. Yet they put her on a disciplinary for ‘repeated unauthorised lateness’. She handed in her notice and found a better paid job closer to home.

Other colleagues have left the wards for part time WFH jobs in the NHS, so they can pick their kids up and don’t have to worry about whether holiday clubs will stay open this year.

Clinical roles in the NHS tend to be far from family friendly or flexible!

And @NotPersephone the Swiss government funded 64% of healthcare. So on that basis. You would switch to the Swiss system and pay 16% more for the nhs AND then co-pay or have insurance.

You'd also live in a society where 21% of people have gone without needed healthcare because of the cost.

That's not what I see as an improvement

@user1497787065

Oh to have a 3% pay increase, a fantastic pension scheme, generous annual leave allowance and very little or no chance of redundancy.

There are so many people whose lives have changed enormously having been furloughed or made redundant during the pandemic. Please
consider when complaining about the 'paltry and insulting pay rise' those who have struggled to pay their mortgage and feed their families.

Why do nursing staff always complain about having to pay to park whilst at work, that is normal for most?

Well, you can. You have only to become a nurse.

Can’t imagine what’s stopping you, given it’s a golden gravy train.

I’m not a nurse, BTW.

[quote NotPersephone]@ThinkAboutItTomorrow as I already said, I’m happy to (and do) pay for private healthcare here as I did in Switzerland. Suspect the per capita spend includes co-pay on your Swiss figures? The advantage of the Swiss system is that it incentivizes providers to see patients (whereas the NHS rations as much as possible). The NHS can’t provide the services it’s meant to provide, yet we’re all too squeamish (and met with howls of outrage from the left) to have a grown-up conversation about what can and should be provided by it.

Holding people’s feet to the fire annually for a laughable 12% pay rise does not really advance either side of the argument.[/quote]
Yes but the Swiss government spent 16% more per capita than the uk and the coPay costs add another £2k per person on average.

If the nhs had that kind of money they wouldn't have to ration it.

And it's great that Swiss healthcare providers are incentivised to get people to pay for more healthcare (as that's what they are Really incentivised to do) but that's no use to the 20% (30% of lower income) who live with bad health because they can't afford it.

I'm only a student nurse, I've only experienced placements, and I plan to only work for NHS for 6 months for experience

Excllent, so just use them and then drop them

Yes thats what my DD is doing right now, any loyalty to the NHS came and went when she had to go into debt to the tune of 50k in order to qualify.
They are just another employer now and you seem keen on worker mobility lol!

You want staff to stay in the NHS? then pay off their debt in return for say 10 years in the NHS.

I’m a healthcare professional in the private sector and I have had no pay rise whatsoever in the 8 years I’ve been in my job. In my previous job, where I worked for 14 years, the pay rise would commonly be 0.5 or 0.75%.

3% seems a very reasonable pay rise. 10 or 12% is so unlikely I can’t believe anyone thought that could ever happen.

But Swiss per capita spending on healthcare is almost double the uk (£2589 vs £5417)
Exactly! Do you really think the UK population, currently struggling, will openly support a system that means a significant increase in taxes to support a system that in all likelihood would do no better than the NHS would with that increase in funding.

The NHS IS excellent value for money. Considering the resentment towards a 3% increase, I can't imagine anyone being to pay more into a system which ultimately would be made of the same people.

I also smile when people's solution is simply 'let's train more people'. As if no-one has with years of expertise couldn't have come up with this miracle solution! Training is costly, but more importantly, training requires current staff to support the training of students, that is yet more time taken away from direct patient care. It's also pointless to invest in training when ultimately, people are planning to leave the NHS before they even start, as the above poster. Waste of money.

@worriedatthemoment

Goverment need to end the agency staff and just get more in working My sil is a social worker and did agwncy work for a couple of years and was paid silly money, could of prob employed 2/3 social workers on contracts helping keep Work load manageable and then pay would be worth it , and I am sure it is similar in the nhs

And how do you propose we stop employing agency staff without increasing NHS salaries? Nurses choose to work agency shifts because they pay more.

This thread really illustrates how much disinformation has worked it's magic.

For all those complaining about private sector pay and conditions start fighting - that's what is happening here, people are unhappy with their treatment so they are preparing to fight it or get out of it - everyone has that same right. Stop with the race to the bottom shit, the answer to all this is not "I have it worse so you can't have better" it is "you deserve better and so do I"

@Blossomtoes some HCPs prefer agency work to allow them to manage caring responsibilities or work-life balance better than on full time jobs with inflexible shift patterns or working hours. Headline pay can still be a factor.