Sad about DC relationship

[HeyGirlHeyBoy]

I'd love some perspective from parents who've had this and people who've been the kids in this station. I have 2 DS and I know deep down they love one another but there is a lot of squabbling, unkind words, particularly from the oldest towards the youngest. There's no sense of 'looking out for his younger brother'. Just dropped them to camp and eldest just walked on ahead of youngest (5) despite a 100m walk in same direction. I don't want to make them feel they must get on but it does make me sad to see that. He does say he feels youngest is preferred, of course that's not the case, but I hear him out and reassure him etc. Has anyone has this and come through? Is the hands off, bar obviously putting in limits with behaviour, the bear approach or should I be more insistent? Feeling a bit despondent this morning, would appreciate opinions and experiences.

Just out of interest, how do people know that their kids love each other 'deep down'? I wouldn't say mine do. Not in the sense of do anything for them/put them first etc. They get on when they have to, but the only thing they really have in common is being brought up in the same house. They don't really argue, but neither do the much care what the other is up to.

Well, for example, fountains, if youngest steps near edge of footpath and car is coming, older boy nearly loses his life and also the comment to him about how he's so kind despite the bad treatment... I think that shows something. They both have friends round now so fingers crossed afternoon goes OK and yes, to previous poster, I'm very much fed up with it.

me and my sister only have a year between us, we used to fight like hell! Both in mid 20s now and have been the bestest of friends since we was around 16 x

To be honest I think those two examples are quite sweet and maybe you just need to adjust your expectations a bit. They are still learning.

You said in your first post 'there's no sense of looking out for his younger brother' - but the first example is exactly that, in a context an 8 year would understand. The camp thing is going to be complicated by the presence of his peers and the absence of risk of sudden death!

@Fountainsoftea

I think it’s something people tell themselves to be honest. It’s better than ‘my children don’t like each other’

I had a friend who insisted her children adored each other. I watched the older one delight in pushing her over, getting her into trouble etc.

You do have to really careful that older siblings don't get ridden over roughshod because younger ones "don't understand".£ make a big show of telling younger one off etc just as I do elder - at times she won't 100% understand but it's important elder one sees that she isnt "getting away with it" every time.

Absolutely, idontwatchloveisland, I do the same. I've never even gone big in the 'You're the big brother' etc. He can be incredibly kind so it's hard to see the unkindness..

And as a very unbabied youngest myself, he definitely doesn't get babied however he is quite mini so is noticeably smaller and people comment on him.

@ChainJane

I think this is more common than you'd think. It's pretty normal for the elder sibling to resent the younger one because they feel the younger one is getting the attention that would be lavished upon them if they were still an only child. This tends to lead to bullying at best and outright abuse at worst.

The best advice is to come down like a ton of bricks every time you see the elder child behaving badly toward the younger one. Take the younger one's word above the elder one's if you are unsure who is to blame in any situation. As with "male privilege" and "white privilege" there is such a thing as "eldest privilege" - the eldest child has inherent advantages in every situation and therefore the younger sibling needs to be treated more favourably simply to be treated equally.

You really need to tackle it head on and call it out every time you see it. Otherwise the elder child will see your inaction as a green light to continue his behaviour.

Terrible advice about taking younger child’s side if in doubt. This will only perpetuate any bullying. Remember the youngest can manipulate too.

I was mean to my younger brother because my parents were very soft on him and he manipulated them to get me in trouble.

@TimeForTeaAndG

What's the age gap? My sister is 5 years younger than me and we haaaated each other. Full on screaming and fighting over who had more space on the couch, get out of my room, you hit me first!

So much better once I'd moved out and we'd both matured. Now we still have moments but basically have a normal relationship.

My boys are 5 years apart (17 and 22) and the older one is always looking out for the younger.

Vice versa actually. So I don’t think it’s always an age thing.

My BF has 2 boys with a 9 year age gap and they can’t be left alone together as it’ll end up in a physical fight!

My Ds (nearly 17) and DD 13 have grown apart and barely speak at all. Not because they have fell out but because they have nothing much in common now. They were so close and it does upset me and their dad. Annoying we have missed out on holidays as that could be a bonding time. We should be going to Florida next week, instead we are home with Covid! Might try and get away in august and hope that helps a bit - though if like last time DS went off and found some friends!

You can’t force children to be friends. Sometimes they are just different - I’d suggest allowing the eldest to have his own activities and not expect him to involve the youngest.
My mum grew up an only child and was really disappointed when I wasn’t close to my two younger sisters. We’re all so different - if we were not related, we would never have been friends. Civil and respectful, but not drawn to each other in any way.
I used to really resent being forced to share my hard earnt friend circle with my first sister, as she made no effort to find her own friends and I felt she was a constant spoilsport (I was more of a daredevil)
I use to treasure my time walking to school with the neighbour’s kid and deeply resented being forced to walk with my sister- I couldn’t get away fast enough.
The youngest did seem spoilt to me at the time - younger children often benefit from slightly more lenient parenting, it’s well documented. And small details feel big to a child - shifts in bedtime by age, start age of receiving pocket money etc… even if small feel like a massive deal. Kids remember everything.

There’s also the sense that as the eldest, you had to figure everything out yourself- so why be expected to assist the sibling? They should also figure it out themselves, fend for themselves, walk alone etc

As adults my sisters and I are supportive and respectful of each other. We communicate about life events and exchange gifts for birthdays and Christmas. We don’t choose to phone each other up for chats or share personal info. We’re totally different and that’s ok.

Yes it is pretty normal. The one thing the older brother needs reminding of is always look out for family, have their back.
Give DS1 lots of positive comments, if DS2 isn't sensitive I wouldn't worry so much.
My DC are 12 and 6 they bicker too.
I found taking myself the prize out the way improved their relationship, a tiny bit.

I'm the eldest of three, 2.5 years between me and my sister. We had a terrible relationship as children and teens. I'm sure I instigated most of the fights. I always had this fear that my parents loved her more. My parents always meticulously treated us fairly, but it was a deep-rooted, almost primordial fear. What I'd say is that your eldest might feel anxious and worried about being second best, even if you are not treating your youngest more favourably in any way. I should also add that I wouldn't have been able to verbalise any of these emotions. I just lashed out, at my sister and my parents. The other thing I'd recommend is asking your eldest how he wants to do things. My parents often made assumptions about how I preferred things (sleeping arrangements on holiday, hobbies etc) and I ended up feeling left out/ othered even though that was the complete opposite of what they had intended. And lots of 1-2-1 time.

@ChainJane

I think this is more common than you'd think. It's pretty normal for the elder sibling to resent the younger one because they feel the younger one is getting the attention that would be lavished upon them if they were still an only child. This tends to lead to bullying at best and outright abuse at worst.

The best advice is to come down like a ton of bricks every time you see the elder child behaving badly toward the younger one. Take the younger one's word above the elder one's if you are unsure who is to blame in any situation. As with "male privilege" and "white privilege" there is such a thing as "eldest privilege" - the eldest child has inherent advantages in every situation and therefore the younger sibling needs to be treated more favourably simply to be treated equally.

You really need to tackle it head on and call it out every time you see it. Otherwise the elder child will see your inaction as a green light to continue his behaviour.

I didn't realise my mum was on mumsnet

No advice on your specific situation but just wanted to offer a glimmer of hope and tell your that sibling relationships have the potential to completely transform with time.

My DB and I absolutely hated each other growing up. We fought like cat and dog and we couldn't even look at each other without getting the rage. This went on until I left home for uni. As adults we are best friends!! He is my closest friend in the world and we speak or text almost every day. We live quite a distance apart but we've always got plans in the diary to spend a weekend together. He dotes on my kids and I love his wife like a sister.

I would have laughed my arse off if you'd told me all this when I was 15 😂

I'm not saying this will be the case for your kids, but it's proof that it's a possibility. They aren't necessarily destined to have a poor relationship forever.

Ah thank you so much all. I'm smiling reading these. Fabulous to have the eldest child's view. I do absolutely let him do his own thing etc, he doesn't play with dB outside the house and that's OK etc however I've definitely got into the habit of dismissing the small things and I think acknowledging would mean a lot to him. As it happened it was YB who caused the small bother in the afternoon and OB was very good not to retaliate, except in words but he quickly cooled. At bedtime YB was upset about a match attack he'd lost and OB basically showered him with his... Couldn't believe it and I could see the joy he got from being that person too. He and I had a good chat at bedtime, this has fallen by the wayside as he reads independently now and it used to be a really special time so while I thought I was doing all I could I can see there are some subtle efforts I can make that might help OB.

My two DSis were as close as you can be in age but had absolutely nothing to do with one another as children and teens but in their 30s became really close through shared time with their children. So I do know it can change too. The feeling you can't leave them for 5 minutes is wearing though.

My two have the same gap and they squabble some of the time and IT DOES MY HEAD IN so I sympathise. I generally find that things are better during holidays as they aren’t as tired and irritable. They have a behaviour chart for the summer and ‘being kind’ is on there as a target! It makes me sad when the eldest is so short tempered, but the youngest can be bloody annoying so I get it! The best thing is to find things to do that they enjoy doing together. Especially if it involves the kids teaming up on the parents! Mine love playing ‘It’ and ‘hide and seek’ and in this hot weather playing with water pistols in the garden - especially when it is ‘everyone get dad’! I try to encourage anything where it is the two of them as a team. Even if it’s silly things like sometimes the eldest getting the youngest to sneak into their room at bedtime to jump on the bed, or steal an extra chocolate from the Christmas tree, all these are little events that bond them and (sorry for the cheesy expression) ‘make memories’.

Agree completely Thank you!

Only get involved in a fight between siblings if there's blood or asphyxiation.

DH genuinely dislikes his sister. He’s made a few attempts to rekindle the relationship, but a childhood full of the sort of overt favouritism ChainJane describes has doomed it.

My guess would be that your older child does not yet have the skills needed to react correctly to the annoying things younger siblings are wont to do and that this, coupled with a little jealousy and insecurity, are fuelling the problem. My advice would be to model good conflict resolution skills to him. If you react angrily or impatiently to his misdemeanours, the only skills he’ll have to deal with his brother’s annoying behaviours will be anger and impatience. If you can react with kindness and sympathy each time you will be teaching him to do the same.

I am the eldest of 3 and my mother always exhorted me to look after the otger two, especially the youngest who was 5 years my junior. She must have approached it in the right way as I wasn't resentful at all and liked the older sister role. I think it made me into someone who has always coped well with life's problems, but maybe also too self sufficient and unwilling to bare all (or maybe that just my personality).

As an adult I get on well with both siblings though have always been closer to the one 2 years younger as we shared more early experiences. Youngest and I have a lot more on common though.

So it's not always that the eldest is jealous and resentful.

My two are 4 years apart and very different in many ways. They've never consistently got on, but do definitely have a bond. I found that getting them to try to solve their own disputes and backing off where it was safe to do so, was the best way to deal with it. They are jealous of each other, so removing my attention made it easier for them as they didn't view the other as being favoured by my intervention.

Most siblings grow out of the immature competitive behaviour.
I'm really close with my sisters, i couldn't stick my older Dsis, now we have such a laugh.
I was close to the younger ones, we all had daily squabbles between us.
I have an understanding of how miserable it must have been for DM at times.

@Merryoldgoat

Ok. I’ll give you an example.

My sister used to goad me quietly. Over and over. Eventually I’d snap. Shout and lose my rag.

Smug gloaty smile which disappeared when mum arrived.

Used to hit herself and get a red mark then tell mum I did it.

I was never taken seriously.

I’m not projecting.

You can leave kids to sort it out if they’re generally close but the fact is yours aren’t and this combative environment will drive them further apart imho.

My sister is 2 years younger and used to do things like that, prod me in the arm over and over until I lost it. We would also just be watching TV and she'd randomly start shouting for me to leaver her alone, I was nowhere near her. I would have sworn blind that she was the favourite and she would have sworn that mum always took my side, looking back it was probably equal though as I also did mean stuff to her. We shared a room and I would tell her there were monsters in the cupboard etc. until my mum or dad had to take her round the whole house to show her there was nothing there. We also used to hit each other and say the most vicious things, we knew exactly what would hurt the most.

Love her to bits now, us moving out and not living together any more was a big help.