Letting someone fail at work - aibu to let it happen?

[MrsBede]

In brief, I have a deputy who has failed to perform since appointment. I have followed all procedures to deal with this but my organisation is poorly led and I have limited support from those above - eg I should have a line manager but the post is vacant. We're public sector.

A senior manager has now told me my deputy needs to be given a project to lead on and when it flops it will be the point at which the lack of performance is finally dealt with. It's horrible, but the team and our clients are being detrimentally affected by this person's lack of competence so it has to happen - I've tried so much to bring them on but they just haven't responded.

So the project has been explained to them and they have got started. There are already issues becoming apparent but they have now sent me details of their next steps and it's really poor. Do I intervene or just let it play out? It will be a fuck up (not dangerous or anything) and should bring things to a head, but what if they come back and say they ran it past me first and I didn't voice concerns?

My problem is lack of support from above but there is none, so MN - please help!

@tava63

If only public servants still cared about them.

When you have our government showing them zero regard is it a surprise no one else does?

why not just say by text or email " This is really not up to scratch , it needs more thought."

You're then covered against any later accusations you "let it pass" or "should have warned me"

@MrsBede your interpretation of that phrase is very wrong. Can't do right for doing wrong... Means they've done exactly what you've indicated once and you didn't like it.... Inconsistent management instructions.

In this context does the employee mean everything he does is perceived as wrong, even when it’s right? He gets negative feedback regardless of what he does?

When I said I allowed someone to fail I meant I have an employee who refused to do something I asked. Ignored my instructions so kept doing it his way and each time I had to change it. I explained each time why and he made it known he thought I was ridiculous.

On one occasion I told him to go ahead his way but explained what would happen. He was personally embarrassed by the outcome but no real damage done.

While he never admitted he had been in the wrong he did it my way from that point onwards.

But it wasn’t about managing him out - it was about showing him why I have procedures.

I think you need to ask HR to support you through this process

If HR are telling you to let them fail, then you need it all documented. You need HR to review the email and document what they are advising you to do (basically ignore it) and get a copy of it.

The person should have been told this project was a lone project where they couldn't seek guidance from their manager. In writing from HR or the senior manager.

At the moment it appears that you have an employee who knows all the procedures, knowsn what's going on and making sure you go down with them if you don't give them feedback.

At best HR and your senior manager have put you in a position where you can't win. At worst, they are setting you up to fail too.

You can't not give feedback and support and come out of this looking good.

I don't work in public sector, but our pip or capability procedures are led by the persons manager with support and input from HR and their own manager.

This sounds like a nightmare having to rely on other people to do it for you. If it doesn't impact them and there's no comeback for not doing it the capability correctly, how does one ever get finished?

a colleague said their whole demeanour and attitude screams "why don't you just leave me alone to be shit..."

Yes, that figures; it's as if they know they've found a comfy roost where they can carry on being incompetent in the knowledge that very little's likely to be done about it

The pity is that they're probably right; it happens everywhere, but as said, in the public sector it's endemic

@MrsBede your interpretation of that phrase is very wrong. Can't do right for doing wrong... Means they've done exactly what you've indicated once and you didn't like it.... Inconsistent management instructions.

Ah, okay, well that's bullshit then as they have NEVER done as instructed. Never. It's been a total nightmare. i know people can only take my word for it but i haven't been inconsistent at all.

I mean, they've done as instructed to a point but interpreted something wrongly in the process or produced materials as asked but of such a low standard that others end up redoing them as they don't feel comfortable using what's been given.

All those people decrying bad managers and feeling sorry for the person - I'm guessing you've never been in this position and have no concept that some people just don't care. They come to work happy to do a shit job and for others to pick up the slack for them. Then they lie or become aggressive when called out. It's exhausting and no fun at all. This person was employed to do a job they said they were experienced enough for and seemed to be on paper, and they're just not. It's a nightmare.

So send the work back.
Tell them sorry deputy but x is wrong.
Please can you add x, y, z points. No info just as few words as possible.
Bc HR into the message.

Email the deputy a step by step road map for success so that you’re facilitating their success. That way if they fail it’s due to failing to not following direction/guidance and you’ve done your best. It’s really important to write clear expectations into regular supervisions

All those people decrying bad managers and feeling sorry for the person - I'm guessing you've never been in this position and have no concept that some people just don't care. They come to work happy to do a shit job and for others to pick up the slack for them. Then they lie or become aggressive when called out. It's exhausting and no fun at all. This person was employed to do a job they said they were experienced enough for and seemed to be on paper, and they're just not. It's a nightmare Op I inherited an employee who was not able to do what they were supposed to do - when I started out if I had free time I'd spend it reading articles and reading through more senior people's files (with their permission) to see how they handled things - yet this person spent his free time watching cricket or football on his work computer. However, i would still say that what has been suggested here to you is extremely, extremely poor management on the part of your senior manager and HR person, and you appear to be learning poor management skills from them. You need to be transparent and fair with the employee - not "allow to fail" in the way you have described. The fact that you are so unclear about what you are doing you are asking here, not asking your senior manager, indicates, as others have said, you have a senior manager problem as well as a deputy problem.

Yes, I've said myself that the organisation is badly run and I know that my own manager is out of order. I've said upthread that I won't ignore the email and will be following the advice to encourage reflection and give bullet points etc. I just don't accept that it's my fault they're shit in the first place!

@MrsBede

Yes, I've said myself that the organisation is badly run and I know that my own manager is out of order. I've said upthread that I won't ignore the email and will be following the advice to encourage reflection and give bullet points etc. I just don't accept that it's my fault they're shit in the first place!

I am still wondering how no formal warning/performance management has been triggered by two capability ‘placements’ (for want of a better word!). It makes me wonder what else has been shit previously. Could you provide a bit more detail about the kind of work you do so we could see how subjective the previous feedback could have been in this case? I strongly suspect it to be subjective because HR does not seem to be with you in this openly. In that case, like others have said, you are being used to manage out a potentially disillusioned employee and will be thrown under the bus as soon as it comes back to bite you in the arse. In my career so far, I have seen a large number of managing out tactics in the private sector, most of which involved employees who were in that job for over a decade and had brought in large chunks of money through their work. On paper, they had done all they were hired to do but didn’t hit that arbitrary number that new managers/owners had in their mind. Admittedly, I have no experience of public sector but it seems to be a capability issues right from the senior management to you and this employee.

I just don't accept that it's my fault they're shit in the first place! I don't think most people have said that and it isn't possible to tell anyway - some employees do badly because they don't get the right training and support, but it is true that a few would not be able or willing to do the job even with the training and support - but having said this, who hired him? With the right interview questions you can assess apititude and attitude. Sometimes considering offering a sideways move is better than managing someone out too.

All those people decrying bad managers and feeling sorry for the person - I'm guessing you've never been in this position and have no concept that some people just don't care

I get it. I totally do. But I also know that these people know policy inside out.

I also know, that eventually managers get so tired of dealing with it, they end up actually giving the shitty staff a loop hole. And it either back fires on the manager or it just goes round in circles.

Especially when the manger isn't supported. But when the manager gets mental drained with all this, they end up looking like a bad manager. Like they haven't supported and taught, all the way along.

The bit I don't get is how this person even managed to stay in their job for the first few months. Interviews are crap, people who interview well don't always make the best employee. So I get them scoring well in interview but being crap.

But I don't get how they are still there years later. They should have been gone pretty quickly.

But I don't get how they are still there years later. They should have been gone pretty quickly.
This is what I want to know too.

I don't get how they are still there years later. They should have been gone pretty quickly

Of course they should have been gone, and in many workplaces they would have been, but I honestly don't think some are appreciating the sheer inertia which exists in this sector

I recognise it so well, and applying the norms of the private sector just doesn't work ... maybe this could explain why some are getting a bit frustrated with OP, though it's probably not her fault?

I

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I don't get how they are still there years later. They should have been gone pretty quickly

Of course they should have been gone, and in many workplaces they would have been, but I honestly don't think some are appreciating the sheer inertia which exists in this sector

I recognise it so well, and applying the norms of the private sector just doesn't work ... maybe this could explain why some are getting a bit frustrated with OP, though it's probably not her fault?

I

I also wonder how much of this has got to do with the pandemic situation. Even in the private sector, senior staff and managers have been at a distinct advantage and the employees lower down the ranks have suffered terribly simply because there was no formal training possible that could work well with the Covid situation. Now the period of 2020-2021 is sufficiently long to disillusion an underperforming junior level employee. In my sector, there simply has been no hiring at that level (a sad sad situation for new graduates), and the hiring of somewhat experienced employees has been on less than ideal contracts and far less pay than before covid. I wonder how much of OP’s situation is a result of these factors. OP also has not answered how subjective the feedback and objectives can be in her/his field of work.

When I say senior managers have been at an advantage, I mean both financial and work-wise. Suppose you are a manager who was receiving London allowance before covid. Now during pandemic, you have next to no commute, you have successfully established yourself and have established relationships at your workplace. A more junior or even a new hire has not got that experience and is likely going to be replaced by someone who is more experienced but is ready to work on the same pay as then because the managers are willing to let them work from home (hence less commuting and related costs).

I have been deliberately vague for obvious reasons and I'm not going to go into detail about this. I'll just say that HR aren't the main people involved and that's normal for my sector. HR is very limited. Yes, there is an element of subjectivity involved and what I say isn't good enough might not match the deputy's idea of not good enough. However, as time has gone by I have done my utmost to model what is expected and give as much detail as possible in briefs.

As I said, the person has not been through capability officially, though they have had 'support' which the majority of people wouldn't ever get nd they certainly know there is a problem. It is unheard f for people to be gone within months in my industry - you'd have to come in drunk or something. I also believe that the person has made a case against me to my manager, unofficially, which I haven't been told about so as not to rock the boat too much.

I love where I work but leadership is appalling at the moment and I have looked at leaving. However, in the role I do (limited sideways moves available and I can't afford to go down, only up or across) there were 140 applicants for the last post I applied for...

A very valid point, Wheretobuy, and I've no doubt Covid's had appalling consequences in some of these areas

That said, I fully expect it to be blamed for everything, whether it's actually had any effect or not ...

No I don't get how it's so poor in the private sector. That someone rubbish can stay in their job, even if they are crap from day one.

However, I have said pointed that out on several threads. And while other people can answer, I wanted to know why from the op in this situation.

I always knew the public sector was a hit if a mess, but this is really shocking. That it's unheard of, to get rid of someone within a few months, even when they clearly can't do their job.

And it sounds like it has always been like that. Even pre pandemic.

@MrsBede

I have been deliberately vague for obvious reasons and I'm not going to go into detail about this. I'll just say that HR aren't the main people involved and that's normal for my sector. HR is very limited. Yes, there is an element of subjectivity involved and what I say isn't good enough might not match the deputy's idea of not good enough. However, as time has gone by I have done my utmost to model what is expected and give as much detail as possible in briefs.

As I said, the person has not been through capability officially, though they have had 'support' which the majority of people wouldn't ever get nd they certainly know there is a problem. It is unheard f for people to be gone within months in my industry - you'd have to come in drunk or something. I also believe that the person has made a case against me to my manager, unofficially, which I haven't been told about so as not to rock the boat too much.

I love where I work but leadership is appalling at the moment and I have looked at leaving. However, in the role I do (limited sideways moves available and I can't afford to go down, only up or across) there were 140 applicants for the last post I applied for...

Three points stand out from your update OP:

1. There is very limited HR. This tips the situation in favour of your employee, both ethically and in case of a tribunal. I believe HR is a tick box exercise in most of the mid-level companies in private sector but works well in large multinationals.
2. You say there is subjectivity involved and that the employee has not been through capability officially. Combine this with Covid’s impact (my comment above) and you have more of a management problem, not an employee problem. In my organisation, I know of at least one manager who simply refused to get off his arse and provide training that he was hired to provide. He still passed his probation. Guess who lost their job? And yes, there was a paper trail but this is what you get in private sector unfortunately.
3. You admit leadership is appalling and you can’t leave due to lack of opportunities.

All in all, this is turning out to be what I felt from your first post: you may have more of a disillusioned employee than an incompetent one actually. The management will throw you under the bus the moment this goes to tribunal. Seen this happen far too many times.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

A very valid point, Wheretobuy, and I've no doubt Covid's had appalling consequences in some of these areas

That said, I fully expect it to be blamed for everything, whether it's actually had any effect or not ...

It’s hard to measure whether this is covid related, lack of proper capability/recruitment guidelines and procedures (incompetent employee) or just a clash of personalities (subjective feedback). This pandemic is such an unusual and tough situation for junior-level employees.

Sometimes, it's just a nice idea / thought process to imagine having to coach people... not that you are necessarily more capable than they are - sometimes, you can manage people far more capable at their jobs than you are, but you are 'managing' them and guiding them in ways to work well as a team, or encouraging them to improve.

That said, sometimes, folks just don't want to improve (and why should they?). They are paid to do a job, and if they do it, it's a fair deal. Not everybody wants to climb a greasy pole or 'buy in' to the next company (HR) initiative (which is a rinse and repeat of something you did 3 years ago, and 9 years ago before that).

Managing is a skill, but it's not always about superiority or hierarchy. Plenty of industries has managers who don't earn as much as those they manage.