Letting someone fail at work - aibu to let it happen?

[MrsBede]

In brief, I have a deputy who has failed to perform since appointment. I have followed all procedures to deal with this but my organisation is poorly led and I have limited support from those above - eg I should have a line manager but the post is vacant. We're public sector.

A senior manager has now told me my deputy needs to be given a project to lead on and when it flops it will be the point at which the lack of performance is finally dealt with. It's horrible, but the team and our clients are being detrimentally affected by this person's lack of competence so it has to happen - I've tried so much to bring them on but they just haven't responded.

So the project has been explained to them and they have got started. There are already issues becoming apparent but they have now sent me details of their next steps and it's really poor. Do I intervene or just let it play out? It will be a fuck up (not dangerous or anything) and should bring things to a head, but what if they come back and say they ran it past me first and I didn't voice concerns?

My problem is lack of support from above but there is none, so MN - please help!

In any other sphere that might help, but in the public one where initiative's often unwelcome it's more likely that OP's boss will resent it (and probably think she's after his job)

Christ this is exactly what happens. I lasted in the public sector for 8 months before running. It was the most depressed and devoid of agency I’ve ever felt.

There was a whole team of people doing barely a thing crying about how busy they were.

My manager went away for two weeks. I finished all my work in a day, asked everyone single person in the team if I could assist them with anything, asked my Service Heads if I could help and literally no one had a thing.

So I studied at my desk for the rest of the holiday.

My DH has worked in public sector for all his adult life and has a very poor manager early on. Her probation was extended twice and eventually they did exactly what your manager is suggesting - gave her a project and sat back.

But one poor project isn't enough to sack someone in the public sector. You can only do it if you follow the capability process - which doesn't involve giving someone a project and sitting back.

@BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand

I’ve obviously truncated a longer story but her probation was extended and then a second time.

They gave her a project which used specific technical skills the job required which she said she had and didn’t (she’d been getting her team to do her work) and they told her it was confidential so she couldn’t get help.

She ended up being unable to do any of it and it was mutually agreed that she should seek a new opportunity.

I think the key is she was still in probation and new enough she could be dismissed easily.

Leaving this shit for years is inexcusable.

I cannot see an issue here.

You state:
I've tried so much to bring them on but they just haven't responded.

You also state:
So the project has been explained to them and they have got started. There are already issues becoming apparent but they have now sent me details of their next steps and it's really poor. Do I intervene or just let it play out? It will be a fuck up (not dangerous or anything) and should bring things to a head, but what if they come back and say they ran it past me first and I didn't voice concerns?

You intervene, and according to yourself they will not respond. Job done, surely?

Or is there more to it after all?

What level is this person - you say deputy - is that deputy director level?

The level of seniority of both you and them will influence the level of autonomy you should give them.

I have allowed people to fail as it is sometimes the only way they will learn, but it always in a very controlled way so no impact on clients or reputation,

They'll claim you checked over the project if you don't respond. So reply with high-level bullet points that need to be corrected, e.g. "the documentation implied in this proposal is below industry standard, ensure adequate documentation".

But DON'T get sucked into doing the actual corrections yourself -that's the deputy's job.

@BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand

I worked in the Civil Service for years, and this is not acceptable. Don’t be part of this victimisation plan. If the person isn’t up to the job there is a set ( and fair) disciplinary process to follow.

100% agree - if there is one thing the public sector has coming out of its ear, it's comprehensive and fair HR policies and procedures.

Follow the process to the letter, and go through the cycle as many times as it takes. Get your HR rep to sit in on meetings where appropriate, so you have an observer present. Document everything and store it all together as an audit trail.

Separately, raise the issue of the lack of support you're getting from senior management.

There isn't a short cut for this, and it can take years. So I'd also do some job hunting in (what's left of) your spare time.

It's not the area I work in, but this post sums up what I was thinking. Follow process, and involve HR all the way. That is their area of expertise, or should be in any organisation.

OP, you are being set up here, imo. You will end up carrying the can for this, if you don't look out for yourself, and worst case, end up being accused of bullying or suchlike.

Lots of posters have asked, but I can't see your answer, have you taken this to HR?

This colleague sounds more clever than they've been given credit for. The e-mail to you is your clue. If you don't reply honestly it will be you that hangs, not them.

Warning: the incompetents always have a list and documents. They're stupid, but they ain't stupid.

You are their manager therefore you are responsible for managing them through the capability process.

It should be you identifying gaps, you documenting training needs, you putting in place an improvement plan, then you inviting them to first, 2nd and final capability meetings. I don't understand why it would be the fault of any of your managers if this hasn't been completed?

Even so, this approach is unfair to your employee and to the rest of the teams who will need to work on the project.

Have an honest and Frank discussion with your employee, documented in full, explaining that performance has been below expected standard, the improvements needed and how they can be demonstrated by completing this project. Set clear achieveable objectives, with relevant and structured support/training in place, agree intervals and mechanisms for the employee to update you on progress and for you to assess whether the objectives are being met. Make clear what the next steps will be if those objectives are not met.

This is public sector? This is awful. Surely you have a capability procedure to follow. Setting someone up to fail with no support, while they're asking you for guidance, is really wrong.

Get the capability procedure out and do this fairly and properly.

So typically bloody public sector. I don't have anything new to add as previous posters have covered it all - covering your arse is so important. Even if you don't get replies to emails just by way of you sending an email to say:

"To confirm our earlier discussion you requested x y z "

Should be enough - they'll either say they didn't ask you to do that so you can change tack, or they'll not reply which is damning.

Keep copies of everything. Remember anything you do send by email can be requested/seen via an foi request.

There's something going through a tribunal from my old employer at the moment and unsurprisingly the senior staff are wearing their teflon shoulder pads.

Good luck!

@TSSDNCOP

Lots of posters have asked, but I can't see your answer, have you taken this to HR?

This colleague sounds more clever than they've been given credit for. The e-mail to you is your clue. If you don't reply honestly it will be you that hangs, not them.

Warning: the incompetents always have a list and documents. They're stupid, but they ain't stupid.

So true .

Yes, I will reply as people have advised with guidance but not doing the job for them. It's just the cycle beginning all over again. I'll ensure the don't fuck up disastrously while doing my own stuff too. Then there won't be enough evidence I'll be told, and/or there'll be another period of sickness...and so it will go on.

HR were in the meeting with the senior manager and agreed the plan.

HR were in the meeting with the senior manager and agreed the plan.

Bloody hell....

Although does that at least mean it was documented in writing?

If it was documented in writing, and you provide appropriate guidance / support to the individual, at least the appalling approach of your senior management won't come back on you.

That's not much comfort though.

Warning: the incompetents always have a list and documents. They're stupid, but they ain't stupid.

100% this. Been there, got the t-shirt.

@MrsBede

1984isnow

Sorry to hear that you're going through this but even worse by the sounds of it . Good luck finding something better.

Ha! The senior manager will never put this in writing. On a hiding to nothing with that one.

Exactly - he rarely replies to emails and even in meetings says things like "I'll deny this, but...", "don't minute this, but..." It's a bloody nightmare.

It looks like a shit place to work at. you appear to be managing out an employee who is asking for help. No wonder your mental health is affected.

I've been set up to fail. It's self-fulfilling prophecy. You're being asked to bully this person. I wish I had an alternative for you.

It makes me think our employment rights are not worth having. It would better for everyone if you could just fire the person right now like you could in America.

Imagine being at a tribunal and these words were uttered...

"Let them fail..."

The immediate conclusions is
a) You were aware of an impending failure
b) You did not intervene to prevent it, and quite possibly
c) You initiated the the process in anticipation of it failing

The incompetence would be placed at your door. Now, I'm not saying you ARE incompetent, I'm saying how it would look if such a policy was documented i.e. 'LET them fail'.

Look, this person isn't asking for help. In fact a colleague said their whole demeanour and attitude screams "why don't you just leave me alone to be shit...".

@VerticalHorizon

If the senior manager won't put it in writing, it tells you all you need to know about the ethics of what you're doing.

ALWAYS be wary of any policy that someone's not prepared to document.

This x 100.

@TwoYearsSince

I've been set up to fail. It's self-fulfilling prophecy. You're being asked to bully this person. I wish I had an alternative for you.

It makes me think our employment rights are not worth having. It would better for everyone if you could just fire the person right now like you could in America.

I have seen performance measures that were designed to specifically kick out certain employees (someone somewhere had thought we had to achieve an arbitrary target of course!). So the employees were given projects which were doomed to fail due to the enormity of tasks. These experiences have made me really cynical about any action that people are not ready to put in writing aka goes so much against the company handbook and the law that we can be sued potentially.

@MrsBede

Look, this person isn't asking for help. In fact a colleague said their whole demeanour and attitude screams "why don't you just leave me alone to be shit...".

They've sent you their proposals for review though. They may not be asking for help, or receptive to constructive feedback, but they are making damn sure they have an audit trail to show they sought your input into this project.

As a pp said: "the incompetents always have a list and documents. They're stupid, but they ain't stupid"

@MrsBede

Look, this person isn't asking for help. In fact a colleague said their whole demeanour and attitude screams "why don't you just leave me alone to be shit...".

Do you have a policy for performance management? I suspect that you have and you and/or your senior manager are trying to find a way around the performance management steps laid out in it.

Look, this person isn't asking for help

They have emailed you though? You intervening would be helping them and therefore they will be gaining experience for the next project??? I am not sure of the sector but I've always received and given support whenever needed.

Yes, sorry, they have sent me the overview but they won't be receptive to anything I say and I also get accused of blocking them if I point out really serious issues. I'm all too aware they have an email trail and sometimes I even think they are emailing me with ideas/requests they know are shit so that I have to say no and they can accuse me of being negative/blocking them. When I first raised concerns I was told that they felt like they 'couldn't do right for doing wrong', which is actually a pretty apt description.