Questions for white people: what is the problem with "taking the knee"

[Flayn]

1. What is the problem with taking the knee
2. How would you prefer athletes protest racism

I am a regular poster, under a changed name and speak 2nd language English - I know the passive aggressiveness some posters adopt for this topic.

I don’t have a problem with people doing it at all but I do agree it seems like a bit of a random gesture to choose because kneeling is more subservient to me. But I don’t know what they would choose instead!

The thing is also that we can "protest racism" with bowed heads or on a knee, but much ebtter would be if athletes actually pushed the organisators and their clubs to action sucha s banning people, ejecting people, fining or something. I mean without the players, they are nothing.

I genuinely hope the young lads are recieving a proper support through this now.

I dont think anyone will come on a thread and admit they're racist.
Lots of people who say shit about taking a knee etc are just too dense to realise they're saying racist shit.

I'd love to wave a wand a make racism disappear as I get so pissed off with the shit. Every. Single. Day.

I'm white and 50 in a couple of years but I have two teenage boys that live with me. My white ds and his black friend. They're lives are the same but the treatment they receive from others, their interactions etc. So different at times. SM is the worst. They both have a few hundred followers but ds never gets called names or worse (the fucking disgusting racist memes)

My lads take the knee before games. The whole team/coaches etc. The sport in general is very supportive and fans never boo. I think its perfectly legitimate exercise and will carry on for years. If it makes even 1 fan reconsider their racist words/actions each time then its worth it imo.

I am white and I have no problem with it, I understand why people want to and would defend their right to do it.

I do think though that in English culture it’s a subservient gesture and actually a bit of an odd gesture to have chosen in context.

Are you talking about sportspeople or anyone doing it as a symbolic gesture? And by "white people" do you mean white people in the UK?

A few possibilities:

1. It's seen as an Americanism. The term "take a knee" wasn't known in the UK until recently. Our equivalent would be "to go down on one knee" and that's associated with a man proposing marriage. Many people associate kneeling with religion (eg in church) or subservience. The symbolism doesn't/didn't have the same meaning as in the US although more people are understanding/adopting it here.

1. It's increasingly being seen as performative (along with other symbols of support for various causes, eg rainbow shoelaces). Some people are now discerning between symbolic actions that are just gestures, and actions that actually result in change. It's all very well going on marches etc, but when they've been happening for years, some people question their effectiveness and what a better alternative is.

1. Some people are now uncomfortable seeing police take the knee, following the manner of the death of George Floyd. But I think that's a very small minority.

1. As PPs have said, some people think it's a political gesture and therefore shouldn't take place at sporting events or in the workplace.

1. Some people deny racism is a big problem in the UK.

1. Some people are racist so of course they don't want to see any anti-racism actions.

@Kanaloa

1. There isn't a problem with taking the knee - I don't think so anyway.

1. I think it would be great if more athletes - black and white - donated to charities and supported anti-racism campaigns. I sometimes feel, along with constant social media posts, celebrities think just saying something means they have helped. Often they could help in more practical ways. For example, I saw one celebrity who, while everyone else was posting black lives matter, black lives matter (with nothing else, just repeating that catchphrase) turned his instagram and social media over to different black activists to tell their story, using photos from protests and supporting black activists/photographers to tell their own story. It felt more meaningful, rather than just saying a catchphrase then moving on.

Our current England team definitely aren't paying lip service. They've started some brilliant campaigns.

So anyone who points out the obvious, ineffectual virtue signalling is a racist? Righty ho 🙄

No problem with it and anyone who does is a racist in denial tbh

And paying lip service to something because you feel you have to, or you'll be jumped on by the thought police, is no indication that you are not racist.

When people make such accusations it shuts down debate.

I think sometimes it just looks like window dressing and doesn’t really do anything . Ie look what a good person I am.
Wouldn’t it be better if I spent my time examining my actions and behaviour and calling out my racism that I see? Or perhaps looking at my firms recruitment policies to ensure that they are not discriminatory?

I don't have a problem with taking the knee but Iike others, I'm not keen on the submissive/bowing aspect of the movement and would prefer linking arms to present a "united stand" against racism.

I've never seen Game of Thrones so no idea what that has to do with it!

Only racists have a problem with this. Most of which a white - granted. There is not other reason, other than they are racists.

You can’t know that. You are just projecting

It's virtue-signalling of the highest order and changes nothing. It makes the participant feel like they're 'doing something about racism' when in fact they're doing fuck all, except pat themselves on the back.

I'm white and I think it's beautifully moving, and an elegant way of bringing racism to our attention, watching the sports players take a knee.

Am white. Totally support the taking the knee.

No problem with it and anyone who does is a racist in denial tb

how does that work for non-white people who see a problem with it then?

@DoucheCanoe

I don't have a problem with taking the knee but Iike others, I'm not keen on the submissive/bowing aspect of the movement and would prefer linking arms to present a "united stand" against racism.

I've never seen Game of Thrones so no idea what that has to do with it!

I like that chain idea, I must say.

This is the problem with a worldwide issue. Different cultures have massively different social habits and outlooks. Gesture which os ok here, isn't ok elsewhere, what's amazing elsewhere, is confusing or meh here.

’much ebtter would be if athletes actually pushed the organisators and their clubs to action sucha s banning people, ejecting people, fining or something’

All that ^ already happens. People have been working towards it for years. England players still get abused by their own fans.

So if white people don't do it, they're racist.
If black people don't do it, they're, um, racist?

I support taking the knee White aged 67

1. As pp have said, knees are historically associated with submitting to authority, so that's going to trigger the racists rather than making them reflect. Gestures or symbols associated with arms/ hands/hearts/minds might get the message across to more people more effectively.
2. Far more frequent spontaneous public condemnation, by white athletes and commentators, of racism. Honest open interviews and sharing of experiences on tv.

@Kanaloa - There was(is?) a "No to racism" campaign running for years - did it assist given what happened at the finals?

@GenderApostatemk2

So anyone who points out the obvious, ineffectual virtue signalling is a racist? Righty ho 🙄

Apparent so. It's a virtue signalling exercise, it doesn't mean the person taking the knee is actually doing something productive to eradicate racism. Not all people of colour will take the knee, are we saying they're racist also if they don't?

Part of it, I think, is that the gesture has become popularised by the BLM movement. People generally will happily support equality and agree that black lives matter, but may want to distance themselves from some of the more outlandish things we've seen that have also been associated with BLM, such as defunding the police and parts of critical race theory that says, for example, punctuality and getting the right answers on a maths test is white supremacism.

I support taking the knee. I'm white

@Crepescular

It's virtue-signalling of the highest order and changes nothing. It makes the participant feel like they're 'doing something about racism' when in fact they're doing fuck all, except pat themselves on the back.

The England team taking the knee has had a great impact. It has brought discussion about racism in football to the fore. It's not going to change much on its own, but as part of the sport's fight against racism (see Kick It Out, and Show Racism the Red Card), it's the thing that most people will see and can't ignore, whatever their views on race.